Transcript

Fragment of S.V. Lavrov's Interview for the \"Bridges to the East\" Project

2025-10-08 RU · EN (house translation, pending review) Source Digest Readout

English includes full house translations. Review is pending; untranslated passages and selected digest glosses remain labelled.

Русский	English
Вопрос: Два года ровно продолжается война в Газе: десятки тысяч погибших, гуманитарная катастрофа. При этом Тель-Авив объявляет о планах полностью установить контроль над анклавом. Ведутся даже разговоры о перемещении населения в третьи страны. Сейчас активно обсуждается «план Трампа». Каким видится урегулирование ситуации? Могут ли Россия и Китай сыграть роль гарантов, как призывают некоторые арабские страны? С.В.Лавров: Ситуация, конечно, катастрофическая. Без всякого преувеличения.	Full house translation — pending review Question: The war in Gaza has continued for exactly two years: tens of thousands dead, a humanitarian catastrophe. Meanwhile, Tel Aviv is announcing plans to establish full control over the enclave. There is even talk of transferring the population to third countries. The “Trump plan” is now being actively discussed. How do you envisage a settlement of the situation? Could Russia and China play the role of guarantors, as some Arab countries are calling for? S. V. Lavrov: The situation is, of course, catastrophic. Without any exaggeration.
1 The Humanitarian Catastrophe and Casualty Toll
Из многих европейских столиц, из уст многих официальных представителей международных организаций звучат слова «геноцид», «голод». От истощения и голода умирают дети. Общее число погибших только по официальным данным – за два года 65 тыс. человек. Подавляющее большинство – гражданские лица, женщины, дети, старики. 170 тыс. получили ранения. Сотни и сотни тысяч лишены крова.	Full house translation — pending review The words “genocide” and “hunger” are being heard from many European capitals and from many official representatives of international organizations. Children are dying of exhaustion and hunger. The total number of dead, according to official figures alone, is 65 thousand people over two years. The overwhelming majority are civilians, women, children and the elderly. 170 thousand have been wounded. Hundreds upon hundreds of thousands have been left homeless.
2 The Gaza–Ukraine Casualty Comparison
Для сравнения: за два года 65 тыс. погибших гражданских лиц – это более чем в два раза больше, чем за весь период ситуации на Украине после госпереворота. Жертв среди гражданских лиц на Украине за 12 лет меньше, чем жертв за два года в Палестине. Тяжелейшая ситуация. Вы упомянули некоторые «экзотические идеи», которые упоминались на ранней стадии Администрацией Президента США Д.Трампа, когда они начали заниматься этими вопросами: «ривьера», «переселение», «курортная рекреационная зона»…	Full house translation — pending review For comparison: 65 thousand civilian deaths over two years is more than twice as many as over the entire period of the situation in Ukraine since the coup. Civilian casualties in Ukraine over 12 years are fewer than the casualties over two years in Palestine. An extremely grave situation. You mentioned some “exotic ideas” that were raised at an early stage by the administration of US President D. Trump when they began addressing these matters: a “riviera,” “resettlement,” a “resort recreation area”…
3 The "Exotic Ideas" of Population Relocation
Категорически против этого выступили арабские страны, прежде всего Египет и Иордания как ближайшие соседи Палестины, куда наши американские коллеги и хотели переселить большинство жителей сектора Газа. Потом были сообщения о том, что в ситуации, когда арабы заняли такую непримиримую позицию, стали искать в других частях света. Упоминались Сомалиленд, даже Индонезия, Южный Судан.	Full house translation — pending review The Arab countries categorically opposed this, above all Egypt and Jordan, as Palestine's closest neighbors, where our American colleagues wanted to resettle most of the residents of the Gaza Strip. Then there were reports that, with the Arabs taking such an uncompromising position, they began looking in other parts of the world. Somaliland, even Indonesia, and South Sudan were mentioned.
Но сейчас, как мне кажется, все поняли, что это будет катастрофой для не только для палестинцев в гуманитарном смысле, но и для авторитета ООН, провозгласившей палестинское государство наряду с Государством Израиль еще в 1947 г. Да, тогда арабы повели себя, может быть, несколько неосмотрительно.	Full house translation — pending review But now, it seems to me, everyone has understood that this would be a catastrophe not only for the Palestinians in humanitarian terms, but also for the standing of the UN, which proclaimed a Palestinian state alongside the State of Israel back in 1947. Yes, the Arabs may have acted somewhat imprudently then.
4 The 1947 UN Decision and Palestinian Statehood
Начались события, которые в конечном итоге выливались в кровопролитные столкновения, в «съёживание» территорий, предполагавшихся под палестинское государство, но тем не менее решение Совета Безопасности и Генеральной Ассамблеи ООН никто не отменял. Государство должно быть создано.	Full house translation — pending review Events began that ultimately led to bloody clashes and to the “shrinking” of the territories intended for the Palestinian state, but nevertheless no one has revoked the decision of the UN Security Council and General Assembly. The state must be created.
5 Netanyahu's Rejection of a Palestinian State
Премьер-министр Израиля Б.Нетаньяху (он, кстати, недавно разговаривал с Президентом Российской Федерации В.В.Путиным, в том числе и по вопросам палестинского урегулирования) многократно публично заявлял, что не будет никакого палестинского государства. Если вы посмотрите «план Д.Трампа», который мы считаем позитивным шагом, учитывая, что нужно прекратить кровопролитие, спасать жизни людей, восстановить сектор Газа, город Газа или то, что от них осталось.	Full house translation — pending review Israeli Prime Minister B. Netanyahu (incidentally, he recently spoke with President of the Russian Federation V. V. Putin, including about a Palestinian settlement) has repeatedly stated publicly that there will be no Palestinian state. If you look at “D. Trump's plan,” which we consider a positive step, given that the bloodshed must be stopped, people's lives saved, and the Gaza Strip, Gaza City, or what remains of them, rebuilt.
6 Assessment of the "Trump Plan" (20 Points)
Президент США Д.Трамп предложил свои «20 пунктов», в которых упоминается слово «государственность». Но сформулировано все это достаточно общо́. В таком контексте, что речь идет только о том, что останется от сектора Газа. Западный берег в этом контексте не упоминается. Но мы реалисты. Понимаем, что это лучшее, что сейчас есть «на столе». По крайней мере, лучшее с точки зрения приемлемости для арабов, «неотторжения» Израилем, а именно так я бы охарактеризовал позицию Б.Нетаньяху.	Full house translation — pending review US President D. Trump proposed his “20 points,” which mention the word “statehood.” But all of this is formulated in fairly general terms. In a context in which it concerns only what will remain of the Gaza Strip. The West Bank is not mentioned in this context. But we are realists. We understand that this is the best thing currently “on the table.” At least, the best in terms of acceptability to the Arabs and “non-rejection” by Israel, which is precisely how I would characterize B. Netanyahu's position.
7 Hamas, the October 7 Attack, and "Collective Punishment"
Но самое главное – надо, чтобы это было приемлемо для палестинцев. ХАМАС является частью палестинского народа и частью проблемы. Мы решительно осудили террористическую атаку, которая два года назад, 7 октября 2023 г., была осуществлена ХАМАС против мирных граждан. 1200 погибших, десятки были взяты в заложники. Это преступление. Но и «коллективное наказание» за такого рода террористические атаки всего палестинского народа – это тоже грубое нарушение международного гуманитарного права.	Full house translation — pending review But most importantly, it needs to be acceptable to the Palestinians. Hamas is part of the Palestinian people and part of the problem. We firmly condemned the terrorist attack that Hamas carried out against civilians two years ago, on October 7, 2023. 1200 dead, dozens taken hostage. This is a crime. But the “collective punishment” of the entire Palestinian people for terrorist attacks of this kind is also a gross violation of international humanitarian law.
Ряд израильских деятелей в то время, когда им указывали на то, что нельзя так реагировать, надо наказывать виновных, а не невинных людей, женщин, детей, стариков, отвечали, дескать, нет там никаких мирных граждан, мол, там все террористы, начиная с трех лет. Да, экстремизм там подпитывается. Но мы долгие годы с израильскими коллегами (когда я работал в Нью-Йорке и потом, когда стал Министром) говорили, указывали им на необходимость отказаться от неуступчивости, попыток «замотать» решение ООН.	Full house translation — pending review A number of Israeli figures, when it was pointed out to them that one cannot respond in this way, that the guilty must be punished, rather than innocent people, women, children and the elderly, responded that there were supposedly no civilians there, that everyone there was a terrorist, starting from the age of three. Yes, extremism is being fueled there. But for many years we spoke with our Israeli colleagues (when I worked in New York and later, when I became Minister), pointing out to them the need to abandon their intransigence and attempts to “bury” the UN decision.
8 The Root Cause — Unresolved Statehood Fueling Extremism
Говорили им, что нерешенность палестинской проблемы в течение теперь уже почти 80 лет является главным фактором, подпитывающим экстремизм на Ближнем Востоке. Дети рождаются, ходят в школу. Там им рассказывают, что у них должна была быть своя страна, государство, что есть решение ООН. Израиль создан, а Палестина – нет. На меня мои израильские коллеги (многие из них даже являются моими друзьями) обижались, мол, что я пытаюсь всё оправдать. Это всё не так просто.	Full house translation — pending review We told them that the fact that the Palestinian problem has remained unresolved for what is now almost 80 years is the main factor fueling extremism in the Middle East. Children are born and go to school. There they are told that they were supposed to have their own country, a state, that there is a UN decision. Israel has been created, but Palestine has not. My Israeli colleagues (many of them are even my friends) took offense at me, saying I was trying to justify everything. None of this is so simple.
9 The Egypt Indirect Negotiations and Guarantees Against Recurrence
Когда в обществе десятилетиями не одно поколение воспитывается в ситуации, когда их законные, одобренные ООН чаяния просто игнорируются, такие настроения трудно сдержать. Ещё раз возвращаясь к плану Д.Трампа. План реалистичный, если его примут палестинцы. Конечно мы желаем успеха тем непрямым переговорам, которые сейчас проходят в Египте с участием Турции, Египта, Катара, США и, естественно, Израиля. Они через посредников договариваются с ХАМАС. Безусловно, важно прекратить все боевые действия.	Full house translation — pending review When, in a society, more than one generation grows up over decades in a situation where their legitimate aspirations, endorsed by the UN, are simply ignored, such sentiments are hard to contain. Returning once again to D. Trump's plan. The plan is realistic if the Palestinians accept it. Of course, we wish success to the indirect negotiations now taking place in Egypt with the participation of Türkiye, Egypt, Qatar, the United States and, naturally, Israel. They are negotiating with Hamas through intermediaries. It is certainly important to stop all hostilities.
То, что ХАМАС делает особый акцент на гарантиях неповторения ударов и невозобновления боевых действий в секторе Газа и особенно в городе Газа – это отражение того, что они извлекают уроки из того опыта, который предшествовал в нынешней ситуации. Еще в начале этого года были предложения, которые вроде бы начали осуществляться, а потом Израиль, осуществив первый этап, возобновил боевые действия, ссылаясь на то, что ХАМАС не выполняет свои условия. Здесь очень важно проработать детали, чтобы не было «рецидивов».	Full house translation — pending review The fact that Hamas places special emphasis on guarantees that strikes will not recur and hostilities will not resume in the Gaza Strip, and especially in Gaza City, reflects the fact that they are drawing lessons from the experience that preceded the current situation. Back at the beginning of this year, there were proposals that seemed to have begun to be implemented, but then Israel, having carried out the first stage, resumed hostilities, citing Hamas's failure to fulfill its terms. It is very important here to work out the details so that there are no “relapses.”
10 The Qatar Strike and the Oval Office Episode
Видели то, что показывали по телевидению, как из Овального кабинета Д.Трамп и Б.Нетаньяху разговаривали с премьер-министром Катара, и как Д.Трамп пытался в прямом эфире добиться гарантии, что больше не будет подобных действий. В данном случае это было против Катара, но под предлогом того, что на территории Дохи находились лидеры ХАМАС. Желаем им успеха. Если мы можем чем-то помочь, конечно, это сделаем.	Full house translation — pending review We saw what was shown on television: how D. Trump and B. Netanyahu spoke from the Oval Office with the prime minister of Qatar, and how D. Trump tried, live on air, to secure a guarantee that there would be no more such actions. In this case, it was against Qatar, but under the pretext that Hamas leaders were in Doha. We wish them success. If we can help in any way, of course we will do so.
12 Western Responsibility and the Macron–Starmer Recognition
Президент В.В.Путин на заседании Международного дискуссионного клуба «Валдай» четко сказал, что мы хотели бы помочь создать палестинское государство, но надо с чего-то начинать. До государства дойдет позже. Цель не должна сниматься с повестки дня. Наши западные коллеги должны нести свою долю ответственности за то, что они сыграли главную роль в «заматывании» решений о создании независимой Палестины на Западном берегу реки Иордан и в секторе Газа. В июне с.г.	Full house translation — pending review At a meeting of the Valdai International Discussion Club, President V. V. Putin clearly said that we would like to help create a Palestinian state, but we have to start somewhere. Statehood will come later. The goal must not be taken off the agenda. Our Western colleagues must bear their share of responsibility for having played the leading role in “burying” decisions on creating an independent Palestine in the West Bank of the Jordan River and the Gaza Strip. In June of this year.
Президент Э.Макрон, а вслед за ним премьер-министр Британии К.Стармер заявили, что поедут на Генеральную Ассамблею ООН и там «всё признают». Если ты в июне уже решил признать, почему это не сделать? Может быть, надеялись на то, что за два-три месяца уже признавать будет нечего, ничего не останется от Палестины? Упомянул Западный берег. Там тоже ситуация тревожная.	Full house translation — pending review President E. Macron, followed by British Prime Minister K. Starmer, said they would go to the UN General Assembly and “recognize everything” there. If you had already decided in June to recognize it, why not do so? Perhaps they hoped that in two or three months there would be nothing left to recognize, nothing would remain of Palestine? I mentioned the West Bank. The situation there is also alarming.
11 The West Bank and Settlement Encroachment
Потому что с точки зрения будущей государственности Палестины, как того требуют решения ООН, там практически вся территория уже занята израильскими поселениями. Слышал (нигде это официально не звучало, но «народ» из числа политологов, экспертов разговаривает), что планируется на Западном берегу выделить два-три муниципалитета, где и поставить палестинских руководителей, которые не знаю, кем и как будут руководить. Такие «вещи». Но ещё раз говорю, что сейчас нам важно остановить кровопролитие.	Full house translation — pending review Because, from the standpoint of Palestine's future statehood, as required by UN decisions, practically the entire territory there is already occupied by Israeli settlements. I have heard—this has not been said officially anywhere, but “people” among political scientists and experts are talking—that there are plans to set aside two or three municipalities in the West Bank and install Palestinian leaders there, who will govern whom and how, I do not know. Such “things.” But I say once again that what matters for us now is to stop the bloodshed.
13 Russia's Role and Putin's Valdai Statement
В этом смысле план Д.Трампа дает надежду.	Full house translation — pending review In this sense, D. Trump’s plan offers hope.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Question: The war in Gaza has been on for two full years now with tens of thousands of fatalities on top of a devastating humanitarian disaster. We hear Tel Aviv saying it is going to take full control of the enclave. Some are even talking about moving the Palestinians to third countries. The Trump plan is being widely discussed. How do you envision a potential settlement? Can Russia and China act as guarantors, as some Arab countries want them to? Sergey Lavrov: It is a disaster, no question about it.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified We hear officials from many European capitals and international organisations say words like “genocide” and “famine.” Children are dying of starvation and exhaustion. According to official data, 65,000 people died in the past two years, most of them civilians, including women, children, and the elderly; 170,000 have been wounded. Hundreds of thousands have lost their homes.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified To put it in perspective, 65,000 civilian deaths in two years is double the number of civilian casualties during the entire Ukraine situation that followed the coup. The number of civilian casualties in Ukraine over 12 years is smaller than the number of victims in Palestine in only two years. The situation is extremely grave.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified You mentioned exotic ideas, such as Riviera of the Middle East, relocation of Gaza population, and building world-class resorts that were put forward in the early days of Trump administration when they first started looking into these issues. The Arab countries, primarily, Egypt and Jordan, close neighbours of Palestine, which our American colleagues picked as recipient countries for Gaza residents, firmly pushed back against these proposals.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified It was reported afterwards that with the Arabs strongly opposed to the idea, other options, such as Somaliland and even Indonesia and South Sudan, were considered as alternatives. It appears everyone has realised by now that solutions of that kind would mean a humanitarian disaster for the Palestinians and a serious blow to the UN, which proclaimed the establishment of a Palestinian State alongside the State of Israel in 1947.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Indeed, the Arabs may have acted rashly back in the day triggering the events that ultimately led to bloody clashes and the shrinking of the territories intended for the Palestinian State. Nonetheless, the UN Security Council and the General Assembly resolutions have never been rescinded. The state must be created.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who recently discussed the Palestinian settlement, among other matters, with President Putin, has repeatedly and publicly stated that creating the Palestinian State was out of the question.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified If you look at President Trump’s plan, which we regard as a positive step given the urgent need to stop the carnage, save human lives, and rebuild Gaza, or what remains of it, you will see that he proposed a 20-point peace plan that mentions the word “statehood.” However, its language is rather vague and covers only what remains of the Gaza Strip. The West Bank is not mentioned in this regard. However, we are realists. We are fully cognisant of the fact that this is the best solution we have on the table.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified At least, the best one in terms of being potentially acceptable to the Arab side and not being rejected by Israel, which is how I can describe Netanyahu’s position. Most importantly, though, the plan must be acceptable to the Palestinians. Hamas is part of the Palestinian people and part of the problem. We strongly condemned the terrorist attack against civilians carried out by Hamas two years ago, on October 7, 2023. Twelve hundred people were killed, and dozens were taken hostage. That was a crime.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified However, collective punishment of the Palestinian people for such attacks also represents gross violation of international humanitarian law. When told that such a response was unacceptable and only the culprits, not innocent people, not women, children, or the elderly, must be punished, some Israeli officials retorted there were no civilians in Palestine and everyone there starting from the age of three was a terrorist. True, extremism is being fuelled there.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified But for many years, during my stint in New York and later as Foreign Minister, I have been telling my Israeli counterparts that they should abandon their intransigence and their attempts to stall the implementation of the UN resolutions. We have repeatedly let them know that the Palestinian issue, which remains unresolved for nearly 80 years now, is the main factor fueling extremism in the Middle East.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Children are born and then go to school, where they are taught that they should have had their own country, their own state, and that there is a UN resolution to that effect. Israel was created, whereas Palestine was not. Some of my Israeli colleagues (many of them even friends) have taken offence, accusing me of trying to make excuses. But things are not that simple.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified When generation after generation grows up in a society where their legitimate UN-approved aspirations are ignored, such sentiments can hardly be contained. To get back to President Trump’s plan, it is quite realistic provided the Palestinians find it acceptable. We wish success to the indirect talks currently underway in Egypt with the participation of Türkiye, Egypt, Qatar, the United States, and, of course, Israel. They are using intermediaries to talk with Hamas.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified It is absolutely essential to cease the hostilities. Hamas’s particular emphasis on guarantees against renewed strikes or resumption of fighting in Gaza, especially in Gaza City, reflects the lessons they have learned from their previous experiences. Earlier this year, proposals were made that appeared to about to go live, but upon completion of the first phase, Israel resumed hostilities citing Hamas’s failure to hold up its end of the bargain.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified It is vital to work through the details to prevent this from ever happening again. You may have seen on television President Trump and Prime Minister Netanyahu speak with the Prime Minister of Qatar from the Oval Office. Live on air, Trump tried to extract from him a guarantee that no actions like that would occur again. In that case, it was directed against Qatar under the pretext that Hamas leaders were residing in Doha. We wish them success. If we can be of assistance, we will, of course, be there to help.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Speaking at a recent meeting of the Valdai International Discussion Club, President Putin made it clear that we would like to help establish a Palestinian State, but we must start with something. Statehood will come later. This goal should remain part of the agenda. Our Western colleagues must also bear their share of responsibility for having played a key role in stalling the implementation of the decisions on creating an independent Palestine on the West Bank and in Gaza.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified In June, President Emmanuel Macron, later joined by British Prime Minister Keir Starmer, said he would go to the UN General Assembly and recognise everything there. If you decided to recognise it back in June, why not do so? Perhaps, they hoped that within two to three months there would be nothing left to recognise and nothing would remain of Palestine. The situation on the West Bank remains worrisome.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified From the standpoint of future Palestinian statehood, as required by UN resolutions, almost the entire territory has been taken up by Israeli settlements. The word I’m getting (it has never been officially stated, but political scientists and experts are talking about it) is that plans are in place to allocate two to three municipalities in the West Bank to be headed by Palestinian leaders who would be governing I’m not sure what or whom. Such things are being discussed.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified To reiterate, stopping the bloodshed is our number one priority. In this regard, President Trump’s plan gives hope.