Transcript

Sergey Lavrov Interview with Foreign Policy Magazine

2013-04-29 RU · EN (house translation, pending review) Source Digest Readout

English includes full house translations. Review is pending; untranslated passages and selected digest glosses remain labelled.

Русский	English
Хорошо, министр Лаво, большое спасибо за то, что уделили время. Э-э, мне очень приятно с вами поговорить. Мы готовим специальный выпуск журнала Foreign Policy, который выйдет в мае и июне и будет посвящен силе во всех ее проявлениях. Это прекрасная возможность поговорить с вами, и я ценю, что вы нашли для этого время. Эм, ну, конечно, нас в первую очередь интересуют российско-американские отношения, и я хотел бы узнать, что, по вашему мнению, последует за недавними событиями. Я знаю, что это были не ваши слова.	Full house translation — pending review Well, Minister Lavov, thank you very much for taking the time. Um, I am very pleased to speak with you. We are preparing a special issue of the magazine Foreign Policy, which will be released in May and June and will be dedicated to power in all its manifestations. This is a wonderful opportunity to speak with you, and I appreciate that you found the time for this. Um, well, of course, we are primarily interested in Russia-US relations, and I would like to know what, in your opinion, will follow recent events. I know that these were not your words.
1 The Strategic Foundation of the US–Russia Relationship
Нет, нет, и, вероятно, я бы так не поступил. Нет, это было не так. Знаете, Российская Федерация и Соединенные Штаты Америки — две крупнейшие ядерные державы в мире. Но, помимо ядерной мощи, у нас много общего. У нас обеих огромные территории, природные ресурсы, технологии, наука, образование и, конечно же, человеческий капитал, и обе страны, по сути, самодостаточны, но при этом не стремятся к изоляции. Изоляционизм в этом мире недопустим.	Full house translation — pending review No, no, and, probably, I would not have acted that way. No, it was not like that. You know, the Russian Federation and the United States of America are two of the largest nuclear powers in the world. But, besides nuclear power, we have much in common. We both have vast territories, natural resources, technologies, science, education, and, of course, human capital, and both countries are, in essence, self-sufficient, but at the same time do not seek isolation. Isolationism in this world is unacceptable.
Потому что проблемы, которые стремительно растут, вызовы, угрозы — они транснациональные, трансграничные, и только благодаря коллективным усилиям мы сможем справиться с этими проблемами, этими вызовами и уменьшить эти угрозы. Терроризм, незаконный оборот наркотиков, организованная преступность, распространение оружия массового уничтожения, экология, продовольственная безопасность, энергетическая безопасность — все это не может быть решено одной державой в одиночку.	Full house translation — pending review Because the problems that are growing rapidly, challenges, threats — they are transnational, cross-border, and only through collective efforts can we deal with these problems, these challenges, and reduce these threats. Terrorism, illegal drug trafficking, organized crime, proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, ecology, food security, energy security — all of this cannot be solved by one country alone.
Поэтому мы очень ценим наше партнерство с зарубежными странами, и Соединенные Штаты являются ведущей державой в этом отношении. И в наших отношениях, я бы сказал, много положительных моментов. Нам удалось продвинуться вперед на пути ядерного разоружения, заключив Договор о начале ядерной войны. Нам удалось подписать и ратифицировать соглашение, которое называется соглашением «Один пояс, один путь».	Full house translation — pending review Therefore, we very much value our partnership with foreign countries, and the United States is a leading power in this regard. And in our relations, I would say, there are many positive aspects. We have made progress on the path of nuclear disarmament by concluding the Treaty on the Beginning of Nuclear War. We have managed to sign and ratify an agreement called the 'One Belt, One Road' agreement.
2 The Positive Achievements of Bilateral Cooperation
Соглашение о сотрудничестве и мирном использовании ядерной энергии весьма выгодно как для Соединенных Штатов, так и для Российской Федерации и имеет большое значение для обеспечения ядерной безопасности и защиты ядерных ресурсов в третьих странах. Нам удалось создать беспрецедентный механизм для двусторонних отношений — президентскую комиссию, в состав которой входят около 20 рабочих групп, охватывающих все возможные области сотрудничества.	Full house translation — pending review The Agreement on Cooperation and Peaceful Use of Nuclear Energy is highly beneficial for both the United States and the Russian Federation and is of great significance for ensuring nuclear safety and protecting nuclear resources in third countries. We have managed to create an unprecedented mechanism for bilateral relations — a presidential commission, which includes approximately 20 working groups covering all possible areas of cooperation.
Нам удалось подписать соглашение об упрощении визового режима для туристов и бизнесменов из двух стран. И я считаю, что это в значительной степени отвечает интересам наших народов. Я бы также упомянул о культурном сотрудничестве. В прошлом году мы отмечали 20-летие первого русского поселения в Калифорнии, в Форт-Россе. Также отмечается 75-я годовщина беспосадочного перелета Валерихка через Арктику из Советского Союза в Соединенные Штаты. Многие другие культурные мероприятия действительно объединяют наши два народа.	Full house translation — pending review We managed to sign an agreement on simplifying the visa regime for tourists and businessmen from two countries. And I believe that this largely serves the interests of our peoples. I would also like to mention cultural cooperation. Last year we celebrated the 20-th anniversary of the first Russian settlement in California, at Fort Ross. Also, the 75-th anniversary of Valerikhka's non-stop flight across the Arctic from the Soviet Union to the United States is being observed. Many other cultural events truly unite our two peoples.
3 Missile Defence — The Central Unresolved Dispute
Конечно, отношения между такими большими странами никогда не могут быть безупречными, и у нас есть некоторые вещи, которые до сих пор нас разделяют. Противоракетная оборона — это один из показательных примеров. Мы по-прежнему считаем, что если Российская Федерация и Соединенные Штаты объединят свои усилия, мы сможем разработать общую систему, которая будет эффективна в защите евроатлантического региона от угроз, исходящих извне. Ситуация с университетом пока находится в тупике.	Full house translation — pending review Of course, relations between such large countries can never be flawless, and we have certain matters that still divide us. Missile defense is one of the illustrative examples. We still believe that if the Russian Federation and the United States join forces, we can develop a common system that will be effective in protecting the Euro-Atlantic region from external threats. The situation with the university remains at an impasse.
США и НАТО, которые поддерживают США, считают, что предложенная Соединенными Штатами система безупречна и не подлежит изменению ни на йоту. Однако, недавно контрольно-ревизионное управление Конгресса США опубликовало доклад, в котором оспаривается предложенная конфигурация системы противоракетной обороны в Европе.	Full house translation — pending review The United States and NATO, which support the United States, believe that the system proposed by the United States is flawless and cannot be changed in the slightest. However, recently the Congressional Budget Office of the United States published a report in which the proposed configuration of the missile defense system in Europe is challenged.
М-м, это не значит, что наши эксперты на 100% согласятся с этим отчетом, но это указывает на то, что даже внутри Соединенных Штатов существуют разные мнения о том, как решать проблему распространения ракетного оружия . Поэтому мы еще раз подтверждаем свою готовность обсудить этот вопрос с Соединенными Штатами при условии, что мы объединим усилия и наши интеллектуальные способности не будут подвергаться сомнению.	Full house translation — pending review Um, this does not mean that our experts agree 100% with this report, but it indicates that even within the United States there are different opinions on how to solve the problem of the spread of missile weapons. Therefore, we once again confirm our readiness to discuss this issue with the United States on the condition that we join forces and our intellectual abilities are not called into question.
Мы убеждены, что совместные действия, совместные с Соединенными Штатами и европейцами, не только станут наиболее эффективным способом противодействия угрозам распространения ракет, но и поднимут наши отношения с НАТО, отношения между Россией и НАТО на качественно новый уровень. Это действительно приблизит нас на шаг к тому, чтобы снова стать союзниками, какими мы были во время Второй мировой войны.	Full house translation — pending review We are convinced that joint actions, joint with the United States and Europeans, will not only become the most effective way to counter missile proliferation threats, but will also raise our relations with NATO, relations between Russia and NATO to a qualitatively new level. This will indeed bring us one step closer to becoming allies again, as we were during World War II.
Существуют и другие проблемы, которые негативно влияют на отношения между Россией и Соединенными Штатами, и ситуация, возникшая после принятия так называемого закона Магнитского Конгрессом США, является тому примером. Я не сомневаюсь, что инициаторами этого закона было желание добиться чего-то большего, чем поправка Джексона-Веника, которая стала препятствием для американского бизнеса после вступления России в ВТО.	Full house translation — pending review There are other problems that negatively affect relations between Russia and the United States, and the situation that arose after the so-called Magnitsky Act was adopted by the US Congress is an example of that. I do not doubt that the initiators of this law wanted to achieve something greater than the Jackson-Vanik Amendment, which became an obstacle to American business after Russia's accession to the WTO.
И точно так же, как они хотели использовать Джексона Венича, чью должность искусственно сохранили после того, как все проблемы с иммиграцией из Советского Союза были решены, и Российская Федерация не заслуживала продолжения действия Чеховской поправки, они сохранили её, чтобы иметь рычаг влияния на политику Российской Федерации . А когда они поняли, что эта поправка уже наносит ущерб американским интересам, они попытались придумать что-то ей взамен. Так и появился номер Магницкого.	Full house translation — pending review And just as they wanted to use Jackson-Vanik, whose position was artificially preserved after all immigration problems from the Soviet Union were resolved, and the Russian Federation did not deserve the continuation of the Chubais Amendment, they preserved it to have a lever of influence on the policy of the Russian Federation. And when they realized that this amendment was already harming American interests, they tried to come up with something to replace it. And so the Magnitsky number appeared.
4 The Magnitsky Act, Jackson–Vanik and the Law of Reciprocity
Абсолютно искусственный акт, который, по сути, представлял собой попытку заменить антисоветскую поправку антироссийским законодательством. Американцы знали, что мы отреагируем именно так. Мы отреагировали, знаете ли, мы приняли закон Демакова, принятый нашим парламентом. И это не наш выбор, но это закон политики: вы всегда отвечаете взаимностью, положительно или отрицательно. Но это то, что нельзя изменить, это не мы придумали. Это закон международных отношений: взаимность — ключ к успеху.	Full house translation — pending review An absolutely artificial act that, in essence, was an attempt to replace the anti-Soviet amendment with anti-Russian legislation. The Americans knew that we would react exactly like this. We reacted, you know, we adopted the Demakov law, adopted by our parliament. And this is not our choice, but this is the law of politics: you always respond in kind, positively or negatively. But this is something that cannot be changed, it was not us who came up with it. This is the law of international relations: reciprocity is the key to success.
Хотя, я думаю, вы говорите, что американцы ожидали ответа, что, конечно, так и было , но они были удивлены, и, кажется, даже многие в России были удивлены спецификой российского ответа, включавшего это положение об усыновленных детях, которое казалось очень замысловатым. Ну, это отдельная тема. Проблемы с детьми, усыновленными в Соединенных Штатах, не являются уникальными для российских детей.	Full house translation — pending review Although, I think you are saying that Americans expected a response, that of course there was one, but they were surprised, and it seems that even many in Russia were surprised by the specifics of the Russian response, including this provision on adopted children, which seemed very convoluted. Well, that is a separate topic. Problems with children adopted in the United States are not unique to Russian children.
5 The Adoption Question and Systemic US Failures
Мы изучили общие проблемы, связанные с усыновлением в Соединенных Штатах, и на основании отчетов американских национальных опекунов обнаружили, что не только русские, но и дети из других стран, а также дети, родившиеся в Америке, подвергаются очень неблагоприятному поведению со стороны приемных родителей. Могу лишь сказать, что мы очень старались наладить соглашение о сотрудничестве в области усыновления.	Full house translation — pending review We have studied the general problems associated with adoption in the United States, and based on reports from American national guardians, we found that not only Russian children, but also children from other countries, as well as children born in America, are subjected to very unfavorable behavior by adoptive parents. I can only say that we tried very hard to establish an agreement on cooperation in the field of adoption.
И, к сожалению, Госдепартамент, который в соответствии с этим соглашением обязался обеспечить, чтобы государства разрешали российским чиновникам доступ к усыновленным детям в случае возникновения каких-либо проблем. Э-э, это начинание не осуществилось, и мы не получили доступа в нескольких случаях, когда государственный суд не разрешил российским консульским должностным лицам посетить детей в семьях, где были обнаружены эти проблемы.	Full house translation — pending review And, unfortunately, the Department of State, which under this agreement was obligated to ensure that states would allow Russian officials access to adopted children in the event of any problems. Uh, this initiative did not materialize, and we did not gain access in several instances when a state court did not permit Russian consular officials to visit children in families where these problems were discovered.
Э-э, об этом не очень часто упоминают, но Россия — не единственная страна, которой пришлось это сделать. Например, Казахстан приостановил выполнение аналогичного соглашения об усыновлении с Соединенными Штатами. А вот во Вьетнаме так было, и, если я не ошибаюсь, в Гватемале тоже. Таким образом, это системная проблема внутри Соединенных Штатов. И я действительно считаю, что повышенное внимание общественности к этой проблеме поможет американским властям что-то с этим сделать.	Full house translation — pending review Uh-uh, this is not mentioned very often, but Russia is not the only country that had to do this. For example, Kazakhstan suspended the performance of a similar adoption agreement with the United States. And in Vietnam it was like this, and, if I am not mistaken, in Guatemala as well. Thus, this is a systemic problem within the United States. And I truly believe that increased public attention to this problem will help American authorities do something about it.
С другой стороны, эмоциональная атмосфера вокруг этой ситуации с усыновлением также помогла российским властям уделять больше внимания детям, которые по той или иной причине потеряли родителей. И мы будем делать гораздо больше, чем делали раньше, чтобы убедиться, что с этими детьми обращаются хорошо, что у них есть новые семьи. Для стимулирования внедрения в Российской Федерации будет выделено больше финансирования, и я уверен, что общество почувствует положительный эффект.	Full house translation — pending review On the other hand, the emotional atmosphere surrounding this adoption situation also helped Russian authorities pay more attention to children who, for one reason or another, lost their parents. And we will do much more than we did before to ensure that these children are treated well, that they have new families. To stimulate the implementation in the Russian Federation, more funding will be allocated, and I am confident that society will feel a positive effect.
Так вы не видите никакой устойчивой напряженности в американо-российских отношениях в результате подобного обмена законами между парламентами двух стран? Вы знаете, это был не наш выбор, и обострение той или иной области отношений между Россией и Соединенными Штатами — это не то, чего мы хотим. Я понимаю, что это не то, чего хочет администрация Обамы .	Full house translation — pending review So you do not see any sustained tension in US-Russian relations as a result of such an exchange of laws between the parliaments of the two countries? You know, this was not our choice, and the exacerbation of one or another area of relations between Russia and the United States is not what we want. I understand that this is not what the Obama administration wants.
В конце февраля я встретился с Джоном Керри, и почувствовал то же самое желание двигаться вперед, не забывая, конечно же, о разногласиях и пытаясь найти взаимоприемлемое решение этих различных вопросов. Но по довольно большому числу областей я перечислил некоторые из них. У нас общие интересы, и мы будем и впредь оставаться партнерами в сотрудничестве по многим международным и региональным вопросам.	Full house translation — pending review At the end of February I met with John Kerry, and felt the same desire to move forward, of course not forgetting about the disagreements and trying to find a mutually acceptable solution to these various issues. But in a fairly large number of areas I listed some of them. We have common interests, and we will continue to remain partners in cooperation on many international and regional issues.
Кажется, это Алексей Пушков охарактеризовал вас и госсекретаря Керри как профессиональных прагматиков и предположил, что это означает, что у вас есть хорошие шансы поладить с ним. В частности, возможно, в сравнении с двумя его предшественниками, с секретарем Райс, с которой у вас были порой весьма конфликтные отношения. А что вы об этом думаете? Как вы думаете, я не сравниваю своих партнеров?	Full house translation — pending review It seems that Alexei Pushkov characterized you and Secretary of State Kerry as professional pragmatists and suggested that this means you have good chances to get along with him. In particular, perhaps in comparison with his two predecessors, with Secretary Rice, with whom you had sometimes very conflictual relations. And what do you think about that? Do you think I am not comparing my partners?
6 John Kerry and the Value of Professional Pragmatism
Могу лишь сказать, что у меня были хорошие личные отношения со всеми государственными секретарями, с которыми мне довелось работать. Другое дело, что не всегда эти хорошие личные отношения, в том числе и на уровне президентов, приводят к позитивным изменениям на практике. Но Джон Керри — профессионал. Он прагматичен, и это очень важное качество для дипломата, особенно для государственного секретаря. Он обладает очень хорошими знаниями о разных уголках мира.	Full house translation — pending review I can only say that I had good personal relations with all the secretaries of state with whom I had the opportunity to work. Another thing is that these good personal relations, including at the level of presidents, do not always lead to positive changes in practice. But John Kerry is a professional. He is pragmatic, and this is a very important quality for a diplomat, especially for a secretary of state. He has very good knowledge about different parts of the world.
Он очень заинтересован в том, чтобы вывести некоторые старые проблемы из тупика. Мы обсудили с ним наши потенциальные совместные усилия по вопросам иранской ядерной программы, ядерной проблемы Корейского полуострова и, конечно же, всего, что связано с так называемой «арабской весной». Это действительно ситуация, которая создает больше угроз, чем позитивных стимулов. Что ж, я определенно хочу поговорить и о ваших разговорах с ним по поводу Сирии.	Full house translation — pending review He is very interested in getting some old problems out of a deadlock. We discussed with him our potential joint efforts on issues of the Iranian nuclear program, the nuclear issue on the Korean peninsula, and, of course, everything related to the so-called 'Arab Spring'. This is indeed a situation that creates more threats than positive incentives. Well, I definitely want to talk about your talks with him on Syria.
Он выразил готовность и заинтересованность в дальнейшем поиске решения гражданской войны, которое могли бы предложить как Россия, так и Соединенные Штаты . В то же время он критиковал вас, жителей Саудовской Аравии, за то, что вы продолжаете продавать оружие сирийскому режиму. Ну, знаете, что касается продаж оружия, мы никогда не пытались скрывать, что выполняем контракты, подписанные довольно давно, задолго до того, как все это началось.	Full house translation — pending review He expressed willingness and interest in further searching for a solution to the civil war that could be offered by both Russia and the United States. At the same time, he criticized you, the residents of Saudi Arabia, for continuing to sell weapons to the Syrian regime. Well, you know, as for weapons sales, we never tried to hide that we are fulfilling contracts signed quite a long time ago, long before all this started.
7 Syria — Arms Sales and the Legitimacy of Defensive Capabilities
И эти контракты в основном касаются поставки сирийскому правительству средств противовоздушной обороны. И совершенно очевидно, что Сирии действительно необходимы оборонительные возможности, потому что угрозы не выдуманы. Они вполне настоящие. И любая страна имеет законное право обладать оборонными возможностями, которые не запрещены никакими международными договорами, и мы не нарушаем ни одного из них.	Full house translation — pending review And these contracts mainly concern the supply of air defense systems to the Syrian government. And it is quite clear that Syria really needs defensive capabilities, because the threats are not made up. They are quite real. And any country has the legitimate right to possess defensive capabilities that are not prohibited by any international treaties, and we do not violate any of them.
Итак, я считаю, что гораздо важнее внимательнее взглянуть на другую сторону этой драмы, потому что оппозиция вооружена наступательным оружием, которое также проникает из Ливии, включая зенитные ракеты, которые являются очень опасным оружием. И мы должны учитывать эту информацию на фоне публичных заявлений лидеров Свободной сирийской армии о том, что самолеты, в том числе гражданские, и аэропорты, в том числе гражданские, будут законными целями. Это очень опасно.	Full house translation — pending review So, I believe that it is much more important to look more closely at the other side of this drama, because the opposition is armed with offensive weapons that also come from Libya, including surface-to-air missiles, which are very dangerous weapons. And we must take this information into account in the context of public statements by leaders of the Free Syrian Army that aircraft, including civilian aircraft, and airports, including civilian airports, will be legitimate targets. This is very dangerous.
И, говоря о ситуации в Сирии в целом и о позиции США и России , мы прислушивались к этому в течение нескольких лет, во время предыдущей администрации президента Обамы. Мы постоянно слышим призывы изменить свою позицию . Официальные представители Госдепартамента в Белом доме говорили бы: «Мы призываем Россию и Китай изменить свою позицию», что означало бы убежденность Вашингтона в правильности их позиции.	Full house translation — pending review And, speaking about the situation in Syria in general and the positions of the United States and Russia, we have been listening to this for several years, during the previous administration of President Obama. We constantly hear calls to change our position. Officials from the State Department in the White House would say: 'We are calling on Russia and China to change their position', which would mean Washington's conviction in the correctness of their position.
8 Syria — Dialogue Without Preconditions and the Question of Asad
И я рад отметить некоторые позитивные изменения, произошедшие со стороны тех, кто отрицал любую возможность диалога, пока президент Асад находится в Сирии. Мы придерживаемся последовательной позиции. Мы постоянно говорим, что для нас приоритет номер один — остановить кровопролитие и спасти жизни. Поэтому проведение боевых действий и диалог без каких-либо предварительных условий — лучший способ достижения этой желаемой цели.	Full house translation — pending review And I am glad to note some positive changes that have occurred on the part of those who denied any possibility of dialogue while President Assad is in Syria. We maintain a consistent position. We constantly say that for us the top priority is to stop the bloodshed and save lives. Therefore, conducting military operations and dialogue without any preliminary conditions is the best way to achieve this desired goal.
И когда нам говорили: «Мы можем вас поддержать только в том случае, если президент Асад исчезнет», это означало одну очень простую вещь: для них приоритетом номер один было не спасение жизней, а смещение президента и смена режима. Сейчас мы наблюдаем очень позитивные изменения не только в Вашингтоне, Париже и других европейских столицах, но и в арабских странах, которые сейчас говорят то, чего раньше не говорили, а именно, что необходимо начать диалог.	Full house translation — pending review And when we were told: 'We can support you only if President Assad disappears', this meant one very simple thing: for them, the top priority was not saving lives, but removing the president and changing the regime. Now we are witnessing very positive changes not only in Washington, Paris and other European capitals, but also in Arab countries, which are now saying what they did not say before, namely, that a dialogue must be started.
Лидер так называемой Сирийской национальной коалиции революционных сил, господин Хатив, с которым я встречался в феврале в Германии, публично заявил, что хотел бы начать диалог. Да, они выдвигают некоторые предварительные условия, например, приемлемость переговорщиков. То же самое делает и правительство. Правительство заявило, что готово к диалогу со всеми, включая тех, кто воюет против правительства на местах, за исключением тех, кто участвует в террористических актах.	Full house translation — pending review The leader of the so-called Syrian National Coalition of Revolutionary Forces, Mr. Hatib, with whom I met in February in Germany, publicly stated that he would like to start a dialogue. Yes, they are putting forward some preliminary conditions, for example, the acceptability of negotiators. The same is done by the government. The government has stated that it is ready for dialogue with everyone, including those who are fighting against the government in the field, except for those who participate in terrorist acts.
Но они также выдвигают некоторые предварительные условия, однако главное, что обе стороны выразили желание диалога, а остальное осуществимо дипломатическими средствами, и именно здесь может помочь международное посредничество, будь то Лдар Брахим, генеральный секретарь Организации Объединенных Наций или кто-либо еще, кто был бы готов помочь определить параметры диалога, место проведения, состав делегаций.	Full house translation — pending review But they are also putting forward some preliminary conditions, however, the main thing is that both sides have expressed a desire for dialogue, and the rest is achievable through diplomatic means, and it is here that international mediation can help, whether it is Larach Brahim, the Secretary-General of the United Nations, or anyone else who would be willing to help define the parameters of the dialogue, the venue, and the composition of the delegations.
9 The Danger of a Military Outcome and Jabhat al-Nusra
Но, к сожалению, эта готовность, выраженная г-ном Хатипом, не была поддержана остальной частью коалиции, и они, по сути, отменили предложение, чего мы не понимаем. Если эта война в Сирии продолжится, боюсь, военное решение может означать только радикализацию страны. Военное решение может иметь только два варианта. Побеждает либо правительство, либо оппозиция.	Full house translation — pending review But, unfortunately, this willingness expressed by Mr. Hatib was not supported by the rest of the coalition, and they, in essence, cancelled the offer, which we do not understand. If this war in Syria continues, I fear that a military solution may mean only the radicalization of the country. A military solution can have only two options. Either the government wins or the opposition wins.
Если оппозиция одержит победу на местах в военном отношении, боюсь, что люди, отобранные в эту национальную коалицию, люди, составившие Сирийский национальный совет, не будут приглашены в Сирию, потому что люди с оружием, экстремисты, одержат верх .	Full house translation — pending review If the opposition achieves victory in the field militarily, I fear that the people selected into this national coalition, the people who made up the Syrian National Council, will not be invited to Syria, because people with weapons, extremists, will prevail.
И почему-то об этом не так часто говорят публично, но когда Соединенные Штаты внесли « Джапата Нусра» в список террористических организаций, члены сирийской оппозиционной коалиции, объединенные в национальную коалицию, публично выразили протест, заявив, что это были борцы за свободу, и это очень важный момент. « Джакатан Нусра» получает значительное внешнее финансирование, большое количество оружия, и, по некоторым оценкам, является наиболее эффективной оппозиционной силой на местах, а также связана с «Аль-Каидой».	Full house translation — pending review And for some reason this is not talked about publicly as often, but when the United States listed 'Jabhat al-Nusra' on the list of terrorist organizations, members of the Syrian opposition coalition, united in the national coalition, publicly expressed protest, stating that these were freedom fighters, and this is a very important point. 'Jabhat al-Nusra' receives significant external funding, a large amount of weapons, and, according to some assessments, is the most effective opposition force on the ground, and is also linked to 'Al-Qaeda'.
10 The Arab Spring as an Interconnected Regional Problem
Поэтому нам действительно необходимо понимать, что мы делаем, когда поддерживаем ту или иную сторону. Люди, с которыми воюют французы и африканцы в Малине, — это те же самые люди, которых европейцы поддерживали в Ливии, и часть оружия, использованного против французов, вероятно, является оружием, полученным ливийской оппозицией от Франции. Поэтому мы должны взглянуть на ситуацию шире. Мы не можем сказать: Ливия — это не Сирия, Сирия — это не Мали, Мали — это не Тунис, Тунис — это не Египет. Это абсолютно верно.	Full house translation — pending review Therefore, we really need to understand what we are doing when we support one side or another. The people with whom the French and Africans are fighting in Mali are the same people that Europeans supported in Libya, and part of the weapons used against the French is probably weapons obtained by the Libyan opposition from France. Therefore, we must look at the situation more broadly. We cannot say: Libya is not Syria, Syria is not Mali, Mali is not Tunisia, Tunisia is not Egypt. This is absolutely true.
Каждая страна уникальна, но процесс, происходящий в контексте этой «арабской весны», безусловно, является всеобъемлющей проблемой, затрагивающей так много аспектов, что мы не можем позволить себе роскошь ограничиваться в каждый конкретный момент ситуацией в стране X, забывая о последствиях. Считаете ли вы, что вас ввели в заблуждение относительно резолюции по Ливии, заставив поддержать то, что Россия на самом деле не поддерживает?	Full house translation — pending review Every country is unique, but the process taking place in the context of this 'Arab Spring' is certainly a comprehensive problem affecting so many aspects that we cannot afford the luxury of limiting ourselves at any given moment to the situation in country X, forgetting the consequences. Do you think you were misled regarding the resolution on Libya, leading you to support what Russia actually does not support?
11 Libya — The Betrayed Mandate
Мы четко заявили, что мандат, предоставленный резолюцией, по которой мы и китайцы воздержались, был грубо нарушен. Бесполетная зона — это запрет на полеты военных самолетов, и на этом все . Коалиция не патрулировала бесполетную зону и не обеспечивала соблюдение режима бесполетной зоны. Это были атаки на наземные цели, непосредственно участвовавшие во внутреннем конфликте. Ммм. Считаете ли вы, что существуют ситуации, в которых гуманитарное вмешательство оправдано?	Full house translation — pending review We clearly stated that the mandate, under which we and the Chinese abstained, was grossly violated. A no-fly zone is a ban on the flights of military aircraft, and that is all there is to it. The coalition did not patrol the no-fly zone and did not ensure compliance with the no-fly zone regime. These were attacks on ground targets directly involved in the internal conflict. Hmm. Do you believe there are situations in which humanitarian intervention is justified?
Ну, знаете ли, этот вопрос много обсуждался, в том числе и в Организации Объединенных Наций.	Full house translation — pending review Well, you know, this question has been discussed extensively, including in the United Nations.
12 Humanitarian Intervention and the Responsibility to Protect
Это общепринятое правило и норма международного права, согласно которой суверенитет не может использоваться в качестве предлога для грубых нарушений прав человека, этнических чисток, геноцида, военных преступлений, и все это было четко изложено в 2005 году, когда Генеральная Ассамблея Организации Объединенных Наций была созвана на уровне саммита и приняла декларацию. где была описана эта концепция ответственности за защиту .	Full house translation — pending review This is a generally accepted rule and norm of international law, according to which sovereignty cannot be used as a pretext for gross violations of human rights, ethnic cleansing, genocide, war crimes, and all of this was clearly set out in 2005, when the United Nations General Assembly was convened at a summit level and adopted a declaration, in which the concept of the responsibility to protect was described.
В декларации четко указывалось, что приоритет отдается усилиям самих государств, на которые возложена первостепенная обязанность защищать свое население. Э-э, приоритет должен отдаваться политическим средствам. И только в том случае, если государство исчерпает все свои возможности и не сможет защитить население, международное сообщество может вмешаться, но только по решению Совета Безопасности . Таким образом, этот вопрос закрыт. Э-э, правила согласованы. Это консенсусная резолюция-декларация. Да , мой ответ — да.	Full house translation — pending review The declaration clearly stated that priority is given to the efforts of the States themselves, which bear the primary responsibility to protect their own populations. Um, priority must be given to political means. And only in the case where a State has exhausted all its possibilities and is unable to protect its population, can the international community intervene, but only by decision of the Security Council. Thus, this issue is closed. Um, the rules are agreed. This is a consensus resolution-declaration. Yes, my answer is yes.
13 A Realist's Worldview — Pragmatism Over Ideology
В некоторых ситуациях такое вмешательство неизбежно и зависит от решения Совета Безопасности. Как бы вы описали свою собственную точку зрения на международные отношения? Многие из тех, с кем я общался, говорили, что вы, в конечном счете, реалист, русский реалист, и что вы ищете не столько роль идеологии, сколько защиту национальных интересов России. Это справедливая оценка? Ну, по крайней мере, я считаю, что мы пытаемся это сделать. Я не верю в идеологию в международных отношениях.	Full house translation — pending review In some situations such intervention is inevitable and depends on the decision of the Security Council. How would you describe your own view on international relations? Many of those I have spoken with have said that you are, in the end, a realist, a Russian realist, and that you seek not so much a role of ideology but the protection of Russia's national interests. Is this a fair assessment? Well, at least I believe that we are trying to do so. I do not believe in ideology in international relations.
Я начал работать дипломатом в советские времена, несмотря на то, что идеология занимала очень важное место в повестке дня коммунистической партии. Могу вас заверить, что на практике мы всегда старались быть прагматичными, и это справедливо и сейчас, когда Российская Федерация проводит на международной арене политику, направленную на объединение стран, а не на создание каких-либо искусственных идеологических разделительных линий. У нас и так достаточно идеологических разногласий .	Full house translation — pending review I began working as a diplomat in Soviet times, despite the fact that ideology occupied a very important place in the agenda of the Communist Party. I can assure you that in practice we always tried to be pragmatic, and this is also true now when the Russian Federation conducts a policy on the international stage aimed at uniting countries, rather than creating any artificial ideological dividing lines. We already have enough ideological disagreements.
Ситуация в Европе — яркий тому пример . НАТО потеряло свои данные после распада Советского Союза и подписания договора Васа. В этом году Афганистан стал объединяющим фактором. Затем наступает 2014 год, когда НАТО покинет Афганистан, хотя и не полностью.	Full house translation — pending review The situation in Europe is a clear example of this. NATO lost its data after the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the signing of the Vasa treaty. This year Afghanistan became a unifying factor. Then comes 2014 year, when NATO will leave Afghanistan, though not completely.
14 NATO's Search for Meaning and Indivisible Security
Но НАТО явно ищет смысл своего существования, и новая концепция, которую НАТО одобрило на своем последнем саммите, вызывает некоторые вопросы, потому что НАТО, созданное как оборонительный альянс, теперь провозглашает свое право действовать в военном отношении в любой точке мира.	Full house translation — pending review But NATO is clearly seeking the meaning of its existence, and the new concept approved by NATO at its last summit raises some questions, because NATO, created as a defensive alliance, now proclaims its right to act militarily anywhere in the world.
Если НАТО считает, что ее интересы пострадали, это, безусловно, новый поворот в мышлении, и, кроме того, это вступает в противоречие с обязательствами НАТО перед членами НАТО в соответствии с Уставом Организации Объединенных Наций и Организацией по безопасности и сотрудничеству в Европе, потому что мы провозгласили в ОКС принцип неделимой безопасности и заявили, что никто из нас не будет повышать свою безопасность, никто не будет повышать свою безопасность за счет безопасности других, и противоракетная оборона — яркий тому пример, потому что Россия, безусловно, рассматривает противоракетную оборону как создающую проблемы для нашей безопасности, поэтому мы снова и снова возвращаемся к этому вопросу.	Full house translation — pending review If NATO believes that its interests have been harmed, this is undoubtedly a new turn in thinking, and furthermore, it contradicts NATO's obligations to NATO members in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, because we proclaimed in the OSCE the principle of indivisible security and stated that none of us will increase our security, no one will increase their security at the expense of the security of others, and missile defense is a clear example of this, because Russia certainly views missile defense as creating problems for our security, so we keep returning to this issue.
Но в идеале мы хотели бы, чтобы этот принцип неделимой безопасности был закреплен юридически. Теперь это всего лишь политическое заявление. Это, так сказать, иллюстрирует оставшиеся идеологические элементы во внешней политике. Я убежден, что НАТО становится все более идеологизированным, и его расширение абсолютно искусственно поощряется, создавая ненужные разделительные линии, как я уже сказал, потому что у нас нет ничего, что действительно могло бы нас разделить.	Full house translation — pending review But ideally we would like for this principle of indivisible security to be enshrined legally. Now it is merely a political statement. This, so to speak, illustrates the remaining ideological elements in foreign policy. I am convinced that NATO is becoming more and more ideologized, and its expansion is absolutely artificially encouraged, creating unnecessary dividing lines, as I have already said, because there is nothing that could really divide us.
На практике у нас одни и те же проблемы, одни и те же угрозы, одни и те же вызовы. И сохранение закрытого военного альянса в ситуации, когда нам нужно объединиться, на всеобщем уровне, действительно не приносит пользы. Новая концепция внешней политики России, подписанная президентом Путиным в феврале прошлого месяца, говорит о том, что Россия играет в мире уравновешивающую роль. С кем именно Россия уравновешивает свою роль? И считаете ли вы Соединенные Штаты или НАТО своими противниками в наши дни?	Full house translation — pending review In practice we have the same problems, the same threats, the same challenges. And maintaining a closed military alliance in a situation where we need to unite, at a universal level, really does not bring any benefit. The new foreign policy concept of Russia, signed by President Putin in February of last month, states that Russia plays a balancing role in the world. Against whom exactly does Russia balance its role? And do you consider the United States or NATO your adversaries these days?
15 Russia's Balancing Role, NATO Expansion and Broken Assurances
Нет, мы не рассматриваем их как противников, и российская военная доктрина гласит, что опасность мы видим не в НАТО как таковом, а в попытке НАТО играть глобальную роль с глобальным военным охватом. НАТО делает свою военную позицию универсальной. Это не НАТО как таковое, а скорее намерение захватить всё. И второе, опять же, не угроза, а опасность, которую мы видим в расширении НАТО, сопровождающемся перемещением военной инфраструктуры ближе к нашим границам.	Full house translation — pending review No, we do not consider them as adversaries, and the Russian military doctrine states that the danger we see is not in NATO as such, but in NATO's attempt to play a global role with global military coverage. NATO makes its military position universal. It is not NATO as such, but rather the intention to seize everything. And second, again, not a threat, but a danger, which we see in the expansion of NATO, accompanied by the relocation of military infrastructure closer to our borders.
Когда был создан Совет НАТО-Россия, когда был расторгнут Варшавский договор , когда Советский Союз ещё до создания Совета НАТО-Россия, когда Советы покидали Европу, существовала договорённость, которая позже была повторена, о том, что НАТО не будет перемещаться на восток. отчет.	Full house translation — pending review When the NATO-Russia Council was created, when the Warsaw Pact was dissolved, when the Soviet Union was still before the creation of the NATO-Russia Council, when the Soviets were leaving Europe, there was an agreement that was later repeated, that NATO would not move east. report.
Затем это устное обещание не было выполнено, и когда Российская Федерация и НАТО установили свои отношения в конце 90-х годов, на бумаге было зафиксировано обещание, что существенный боевой потенциал НАТО не будет перемещен на территорию новых членов. Это тоже не соблюдается. Поэтому мы были бы очень заинтересованы не в том, чтобы довольствоваться политическими обещаниями, а в том, чтобы получить юридически обязывающие гарантии. Именно поэтому у нас есть позиция по противоракетной обороне, которую я вам объяснил.	Full house translation — pending review Then this verbal promise was not fulfilled, and when the Russian Federation and NATO established their relations in the late 90s, on paper the promise was recorded that NATO's significant combat potential would not be moved to the territory of new members. This is also not complied with. Therefore, we would be very interested not in being content with political promises, but in obtaining legally binding guarantees. That is why we have a position on missile defense, which I explained to you.
Вы видите какие-либо изменения? Вы занимаете пост министра иностранных дел России дольше, чем кто-либо другой в постсоветский период. Вы заметили какие-либо изменения во внешнеполитической позиции России за этот период времени, и заметили ли вы какие-либо изменения между приходом к власти президента Медведя и возвращением к власти президента Путина? Э-э, отвечая на ваш первый вопрос, я бы вернулся к тому, что я упустил в вашем предыдущем замечании относительно уравновешивающей роли Российской Федерации.	Full house translation — pending review Do you see any changes? You have held the post of Minister of Foreign Affairs of Russia longer than anyone else in the post-Soviet period. Have you noticed any changes in Russia's foreign policy position during this period of time, and have you noticed any changes between the coming to power of President Medvedev and the return to power of President Putin? Uh, answering your first question, I would return to what I missed in your previous remark regarding the balancing role of the Russian Federation.
Э-э, знаете, мы... э-э... помните, как мы вместе с Францией и Германией протестовали против войны в Ираке в 2003 году? И помните, какую позицию мы заняли по Ливии, какую позицию мы занимаем по Сирии, и как многие западные партнеры говорили нам, что мы за это заплатим, что мы теряем арабский мир и так далее. Э-э, что было неправильно, а что нет. В Ираке у нас есть правительство, которое является результатом американской интервенции, и это правительство хочет дружить с Россией.	Full house translation — pending review Uh, you know, we... uh... remember how we protested the war in Iraq in 2003 together with France and Germany? And remember what position we took on Libya, what position we take on Syria, and how many Western partners told us that we would pay for this, that we lose the Arab world and so on. Uh, what was wrong and what was not. In Iraq we have a government that is the result of the American intervention, and this government wants to be friends with Russia.
Новые ливийские власти хотят, чтобы мы продолжили экономические и иные проекты, которые мы начали при режиме Каддафи. Не потому, что у них, ну, знаете, есть какие-то предпочтения, а потому, что они считают, что в современном мире неразумно полагаться на кого-то и не общаться с другими, особенно учитывая, что нам есть что предложить. У нас есть история взаимоотношений с арабским миром. Нас связывает долгая история взаимоотношений с африканскими странами, в течение которой мы активно поддерживали деколонизацию.	Full house translation — pending review The new Libyan authorities want us to continue the economic and other projects that we started under the Gaddafi regime. Not because they, well, you know, have certain preferences, but because they believe that in the modern world it is unreasonable to rely on someone and not communicate with others, especially considering that we have something to offer. We have a history of relations with the Arab world. We are linked by a long history of relations with African countries, during which we actively supported decolonization.
И кстати, границы, оставшиеся после деколонизации, вероятно, являются самым большим источником проблем в Африке, когда этнические группы были искусственно разделены пополам . э-э, Руанда, Уганда, Мали, да что угодно. Итак, возьмем Судан и другие страны, помните, что мы всегда были последовательны. Мы никогда не говорили , что можем поддерживать кого-то в Ливии, а затем воевать с теми же людьми в Мали.	Full house translation — pending review And by the way, the borders that remained after decolonization are probably the biggest source of problems in Africa when ethnic groups were artificially split in half. Uh-uh, Rwanda, Uganda, Mali, anything. So, let's take Sudan and other countries, remember that we have always been consistent. We never said that we could support someone in Libya and then fight with the same people in Mali.
Террористы — это террористы, и когда они проявляют агрессию, когда агрессивные инстинкты не сдерживаются, мы попадаем в беду. Так что мой ответ очень прост. Мы всегда говорили правду, и именно это писал наш знаменитый дипломат Александр Горчиков, один из самых эффективных и блестящих дипломатов Европы. Он всегда говорил, что открытость — ключ к успеху во внешней политике. Всегда нужно прямо заявлять о своих интересах так, чтобы люди вас поняли.	Full house translation — pending review Terrorists are terrorists, and when they show aggression, when aggressive instincts are not restrained, we get into trouble. So my answer is very simple. We have always told the truth, and this is exactly what our famous diplomat Alexander Gorshkov wrote, one of the most effective and brilliant diplomats of Europe. He always said that openness is the key to success in foreign policy. One must always clearly state one's interests so that people understand you.
И даже если эти интересы не совпадают с интересами вашего партнера, даже если эти интересы противоречат интересам вашего партнера, если это законные, желаемые интересы, если они четко объяснены, это всегда лучше, чем пытаться ввязываться в интриги в византийском стиле и так далее. Что касается изменений во внешней политике России, то да, мы, мы, мы, мы, у нас, если хотите, укрепились внутри страны, мы стали сильнее экономически. Мы успешно решаем социальные проблемы, повышая уровень жизни населения.	Full house translation — pending review And even if these interests do not coincide with the interests of your partner, even if these interests contradict the interests of your partner, if they are legitimate, desired interests, if they are clearly explained, this is always better than trying to get involved in intrigues in a Byzantine style and so on. As for changes in Russia's foreign policy, yes, we, we, we, we, we, if you like, have strengthened within the country, we have become economically stronger. We successfully solve social problems, raising the living standards of the population.
16 Russia's Growing Assertiveness and Global Reach
Да, многое еще предстоит сделать, но изменения очень заметны, мы их чувствуем, и Россия, если хотите, чувствует себя более напористой. Э-э, не агрессивные, но напористые, и мы, э-э, выходим из ситуации, в которой оказались в начале 90-х, когда Советский Союз распался, а Российская Федерация стала тем, чем она является сейчас, знаете ли, без границ, без бюджета, без денег, и с огромными проблемами, начиная с нехватки продовольствия и так далее.	Full house translation — pending review Yes, there is still much to be done, but the changes are very noticeable, we feel them, and Russia, if you will, feels more assertive. Uh, not aggressive, but assertive, and we are emerging from the situation we found ourselves in at the beginning of the 90s, when the Soviet Union collapsed and the Russian Federation became what it is now, you know, without borders, without a budget, without money, and with huge problems, starting with food shortages and so on.
Сейчас это совсем другая страна, и, конечно, мы можем уделять больше внимания защите наших законных интересов в тех областях, где мы довольно долгое время отсутствовали после распада Советского Союза. Африка — яркий тому пример . Сейчас российские компании проявляют интерес к ведению бизнеса в Африке. Африканцы заинтересованы в нашем присутствии. Они не хотят, чтобы ими доминировали всего один или два инвестора. Они хотят больше стран. И я считаю, что это здоровое, это здоровое желание.	Full house translation — pending review Now it is a completely different country, and, of course, we can pay more attention to protecting our legitimate interests in those areas where we were absent for quite some time after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Africa is a prime example. Now Russian companies are showing interest in doing business in Africa. Africans are interested in our presence. They do not want to be dominated by just one or two investors. They want more countries. And I believe that this is a healthy, this is a healthy desire.
Латинская Америка, мы экономически стали достаточно сильными, чтобы выглядеть так же, и существует множество проектов, взаимовыгодных как для нас, так и для стран Латинской Америки. Азиатско-Тихоокеанский регион. Конечно, мы являемся тихоокеанской державой, и для нас, в том числе для развития Дальнего Востока и Восточной Сибири, крайне важно тесно интегрироваться в экономический процесс Азиатско-Тихоокеанского региона.	Full house translation — pending review Latin America, we have become economically strong enough to look like it, and there are many projects that are mutually beneficial for both us and the countries of Latin America. The Asia-Pacific region. Of course, we are a Pacific power, and for us, including for the development of the Far East and Eastern Siberia, it is extremely important to integrate closely into the economic process of the Asia-Pacific region.
Э-э, это, в принципе, то, что мы сейчас делаем, помимо традиционной дипломатии в Европе с Китаем и Индией. У нас гораздо более широкая повестка дня, потому что, во- первых, у нас больше экономических возможностей. Знаете, я брал интервью у многих ваших бывших коллег в Соединенных Штатах и спрашивал их об их отношениях с вами. И, конечно же, каждый из них сказал, что очень впечатлен вашим опытом. И все они упомянули ваш очень успешный стиль ведения переговоров .	Full house translation — pending review Uh, this is, in principle, what we are doing now, in addition to traditional diplomacy in Europe with China and India. We have a much broader agenda because, first of all, we have more economic opportunities. You know, I interviewed many of your former colleagues in the United States and asked them about their relations with you. And, of course, each of them said that they were very impressed by your experience. And they all mentioned your very successful style of negotiation.
Думаю, в Соединенных Штатах, возможно, не так развита традиция ведения переговоров , но мне любопытно, вы имели дело со многими разными послами США в ООН и секретарями Государственного департамента. В чём же американцы ошибаются насчёт России? Какие ошибки они совершают? Например, что касается Сирии, я много раз слышал в Вашингтоне за последний год: «Ну, русские на этот раз изменят свою позицию» или «Мы действительно чувствуем, что они изменят свою позицию», а вы не изменили свою .	Full house translation — pending review I think that in the United States, perhaps the tradition of negotiation is not as developed, but I am curious, you have dealt with many different US ambassadors to the UN and Secretaries of State. Where do Americans err regarding Russia? What mistakes do they make? For example, regarding Syria, I have heard many times in Washington over the past year: 'Well, the Russians will change their position this time' or 'We really feel that they will change their position', and you did not change yours.
17 American Misperceptions of Russia and the Diplomatic Tradition of Gorchakov
Возможно, здесь имело место неверное толкование. Ну, я не умею читать мысли людей. Так вот, я не знаю, почему они это говорили. Кстати, когда вы разговариваете с серьезными профессионалами из США или Европы о Сирии или о чем-то подобном на Ближнем Востоке, все они, по сути, разделяют тот же анализ, который я вам представил. Но почему-то, когда они выходят на публику, они постоянно твердят, что Асад должен уйти, иначе ничего не изменится.	Full house translation — pending review Perhaps there was a misinterpretation here. Well, I cannot read people's minds. So, I do not know why they said that. By the way, when you talk to serious professionals from the United States or Europe about Syria or something similar in the Middle East, they all, in essence, share the same analysis that I presented to you. But for some reason, when they go public, they constantly insist that Assad must go, otherwise nothing will change.
Они прекрасно понимают опасность распространения экстремизма в регионе и осознают необходимость переговоров и достижения согласия. Честно говоря, опыт работы в Организации Объединенных Наций очень полезен для тех, кто хочет развить навыки ведения переговоров, потому что многосторонняя дипломатия всегда сопряжена с трудностями, поскольку необходимо учитывать позиции множества участников. В Совете Безопасности 15 членов, а в Генеральной Ассамблее — почти 200 членов.	Full house translation — pending review They fully understand the danger of extremism spreading in the region and recognize the need for negotiations and reaching agreement. To be honest, experience working at the United Nations is very useful for those who want to develop negotiation skills, because multilateral diplomacy is always fraught with difficulties, since it is necessary to take into account the positions of many participants. The Security Council has 15 members, and the General Assembly has almost 200 members.
И вам всегда нужно учитывать интересы столь многих штатов. Я уже упоминал о Горчикове, и одним из его главных достижений было восстановление российского влияния в Европе после поражения в Крымской войне. И он сделал это, как писал один из русских поэтов, когда Тучиф писал о нём, он сделал это, не двигая с места пистолет. Он сделал это исключительно дипломатическим путем, опираясь на свои замечательные и глубокие знания тонкостей политики Великобритании, Франции, Италии, Пруссии, Австрии. Э-э, это пример.	Full house translation — pending review And you always need to take into account the interests of so many states. I have already mentioned Gorchakov, and one of his main achievements was the restoration of Russian influence in Europe after the defeat in the Crimean War. And he did it, as one of the Russian poets wrote, when Tuchi wrote about him, he did it without moving a pistol from its place. He did it exclusively by diplomatic means, relying on his remarkable and deep knowledge of the subtleties of the politics of Britain, France, Italy, Prussia, Austria. Eh-eh, this is an example. ]
И да, я даже принёс цитату Горчикова о том, как организовывать мировые дела. Он написал, что всеобщий мир является основой для естественных отношений между государствами, и эта основа обеспечивает равенство всех стран, больших и малых. Иностранное вмешательство во внутренние дела страны неприемлемо. Применение силы в международных отношениях недопустимо, особенно со стороны стран, которые считают себя лидерами цивилизации.	Full house translation — pending review And yes, I even brought a quote by Gorchikov on how to organize world affairs. He wrote that universal peace is the basis for natural relations between states, and this basis ensures the equality of all countries, big and small. Foreign intervention in the internal affairs of a country is unacceptable. The use of force in international relations is inadmissible, especially by countries that consider themselves leaders of civilization.
Э-э, я думаю, это была первая попытка сформулировать концепцию, которая впоследствии стала Уставом Организации Объединенных Наций. Я действительно восхищаюсь этим человеком, он оказал огромную услугу своей стране, и мы стараемся популяризировать его традиции. Есть ли еще какие-либо примеры современных или более поздних лидеров, которые, по вашему мнению, особенно успешны в практике международных отношений? Ну, их много.	Full house translation — pending review Uh-uh, I think this was the first attempt to formulate a concept that later became the Charter of the United Nations. I truly admire this man; he rendered a great service to his country, and we strive to popularize his traditions. Are there any other examples of modern or later leaders who, in your opinion, are particularly successful in the practice of international relations? Well, there are many of them.
Я не хочу, я не хочу, э-э, использовать, я имею в виду, называть имена тех, кто еще работает, и э-э, я могу кого-то забыть, но большинство моих партнеров, э-э, в Европе, например, я глубоко уважаю, многие из них многого добились для своих стран, и, конечно же, американские госсекретари, как я уже сказал, у меня были очень хорошие личные отношения со всеми ними, э-э, и в профессиональном плане это было довольно э-э, приятно.	Full house translation — pending review I don't want, I don't want, uh-uh, to use, I mean, to name the names of those who are still working, and uh-uh, I might forget someone, but most of my partners, uh-uh, in Europe, for example, I deeply respect; many of them have achieved much for their countries, and, of course, the American Secretaries of State, as I have already said, I had very good personal relations with all of them, uh-uh, and professionally it was quite uh-uh pleasant.
Итак, мои коллеги из Азии и Африки в последнее время принимают у себя министров из Африки, и у меня много друзей в Латинской Америке. Интересно, что многие министры на всех этих континентах некоторое время назад были моими коллегами в Организации Объединенных Наций, и это также помогает нам в ведении дел в нашем новом качестве. Верно. Итак, ваш ключевой профессиональный опыт — это годы работы в Организации Объединенных Наций.	Full house translation — pending review So, my colleagues from Asia and Africa have recently been hosting ministers from Africa, and I have many friends in Latin America. It is interesting that many ministers on all these continents were my colleagues in the United Nations some time ago, and this also helps us in conducting business in our new capacity. Correct. So, your key professional experience is years of work in the United Nations.
Сегодня многие крайне критически относятся к Организации Объединенных Наций и считают, что она фактически утратила значительную часть своей способности конструктивно помогать в решении проблем. Люди винят, возможно, генерального секретаря в не слишком успешной работе. Согласны ли вы с тем, что Организация Объединенных Наций уже не играет той роли, которую играла раньше ? Ну, Организация Объединенных Наций — это не какое-то животное, которое живет самостоятельно.	Full house translation — pending review Today many are extremely critical of the United Nations and believe that it has in fact lost a significant part of its ability to constructively help in solving problems. People blame, perhaps, the Secretary-General for not too successful work. Do you agree that the United Nations no longer plays the role it played before? Well, the United Nations is not some animal that lives independently.
Организация Объединенных Наций состоит из государств-членов и, прежде всего, Совета Безопасности. Создание Совета Безопасности именно в таком виде, а именно с пятью постоянными членами, произошло не случайно. Э-э, именно по настоянию Соединенных Штатов было создано учреждение постоянного членства.	Full house translation — pending review The United Nations consists of member states and, above all, the Security Council. The creation of the Security Council in exactly this form, namely with five permanent members, did not happen by chance. Um, it was created by the insistence of the United States as a permanent membership institution.
В Организации Объединенных Наций, потому что США не хотели повторять провал Лиги Наций, которая не предусматривала особую роль для крупных держав, и модель, которая была выбрана и одобрена для Организации Объединенных Наций, я думаю, является рабочей и эффективной моделью. Когда говорят, что Россия и Китай наложили вето на резолюцию, и поэтому организация парализована, это искажение первоначальной идеи отцов-основателей.	Full house translation — pending review In the United Nations, because the United States did not want to repeat the failure of the League of Nations, which did not provide for a special role for major powers, and the model that was chosen and approved for the United Nations, I think, is a working and effective model. When it is said that Russia and China vetoed a resolution, and therefore the organization is paralyzed, this is a distortion of the original idea of the founders.
18 The UN, the Security Council and the True Meaning of the Veto
Право вето было вновь введено по настоянию Америки, чтобы гарантировать, что принимаемые решения, оказывающие прямое влияние на международный мир и безопасность, являются жизнеспособными и осуществимыми. Авторы Устава ООН ясно понимали, что если одна из великих держав возражает, то решение фактически не будет принято, потому что оно не сработает. Вот, собственно, и вся причина, по которой этот пункт о праве вето включен в обсуждение.	Full house translation — pending review The veto right was reintroduced at the insistence of America to ensure that decisions having a direct impact on international peace and security are viable and feasible. The authors of the UN Charter clearly understood that if one of the great powers objects, then the decision will in fact not be adopted, because it will not work. That, essentially, is the reason why this point on the veto right is included in the discussion.
Таким образом, когда страны подписывают и ратифицируют устав, они принимают это, они принимают право вето. Таким образом, право вето — это не чья-то капризность, а часть процесса принятия решений, и если есть право вето, то, согласно уставу, решение не будет иметь силы и не будет принято. Итак, когда мы говорим об эффективности Организации Объединенных Наций, люди обычно подразумевают только одно: поддерживал ли Совет Безопасности позицию Запада или нет. Ммм.	Full house translation — pending review Thus, when countries sign and ratify the Charter, they accept it, they accept the veto right. Thus, the veto right is not someone's caprice, but part of the decision-making process, and if there is a veto right, then, according to the Charter, the decision will not have force and will not be adopted. So, when we talk about the effectiveness of the United Nations, people usually mean only one thing: whether the Security Council supported the West's position or not. Hmm.
В принципе, дело в том, что средства массовой информации находятся под доминированием Запада, и когда президент западной страны говорит, что этот лидер не будет управлять своей страной, и это мое решение, а Совет Безопасности не поддерживает резолюцию по этому вопросу. Затем, конечно же, СМИ начинают раздувать эту тему, утверждая, что Совет Безопасности и Организация Объединенных Наций парализованы и неэффективны, и так далее. Эм, это игра, в значительной степени.	Full house translation — pending review In principle, the matter is that the mass media are dominated by the West, and when the president of a Western country says that this leader will not manage his country, and this is my decision, and the Security Council does not support the resolution on this issue. Then, of course, the media begin to inflate this topic, claiming that the Security Council and the United Nations are paralyzed and ineffective, and so on. Um, this is a game, to a large extent.
Но, конечно же, общественное внимание всегда уделяется каким-то скандальным вопросам, конфликтам, убийствам, войнам. Не будем забывать, что Организация Объединенных Наций — это система, включающая почти два десятка организаций: электроэнергетика, гражданская авиация, морское судоходство, международные стандарты здравоохранения, международные стандарты труда.	Full house translation — pending review But, of course, public attention is always focused on some scandalous issues, conflicts, murders, wars. Let us not forget that the United Nations is a system that includes almost two dozen organizations: power, civil aviation, maritime shipping, international health standards, international labor standards.
Многие вещи, которые мы ежедневно воспринимаем как должное, облегчаются благодаря существованию системы Организации Объединенных Наций и ее специализированных учреждений. К сожалению, СМИ не преподносят это как право вето. Это верно. В последние годы Россия и Китай все чаще голосуют вместе в случаях, когда возникает право вето или угроза вето. Значит ли это, что Китай является ближайшим партнером России? Можно ли сказать, что мы стратегические партнеры Китая?	Full house translation — pending review Many things that we take for granted every day are facilitated by the existence of the United Nations system and its specialized agencies. Unfortunately, the media do not present this as the veto right. That is true. In recent years, Russia and China have increasingly voted together in cases where a veto right arises or a veto threat arises. Does this mean that China is Russia's closest partner? Can we say that we are China's strategic partners? ]
19 Russia and China, Multipolarity and the "Mr Nyet" Charge
И я считаю, что причина в том, что мы, то есть, причина, по которой мы сходимся во мнениях по международным вопросам, заключается в том, что мы хотим одного и того же в международных отношениях: достижения демократии и верховенства права. Верховенство права продвигается нашими западными друзьями исключительно во внутренней политике, то есть на уровне государств. Как только вы просите их обсудить верховенство права на международном уровне, они не проявляют особого энтузиазма. Это верно.	Full house translation — pending review And I believe that the reason is that we, that is, the reason why we converge on opinions on international issues, is that we want the same thing in international relations: the achievement of democracy and the rule of law. The rule of law is promoted by our Western friends exclusively in domestic policy, that is, at the level of states. As soon as you ask them to discuss the rule of law at the international level, they do not show much enthusiasm. That is correct.
Хотя многие из них скажут, что Россия и Китай действуют сообща в Совете Безопасности, потому что у них есть общая заинтересованность в обеспечении возможности проводить авторитарную политику внутри страны без угрозы международного вмешательства. Что ж, это объяснение, вероятно, соответствует западному видению России и Китая или видению тех на Западе, кто хотел бы представить Россию и Китай как проблему в международных отношениях.	Full house translation — pending review Although many of them will say that Russia and China act together in the Security Council because they have a common interest in ensuring the ability to conduct authoritarian policy within the country without the threat of international intervention. Well, that explanation probably corresponds to the Western view of Russia and China or the view of those in the West who would like to present Russia and China as a problem in international relations.
Мы занимаем эту позицию, основываясь на нашем понимании ситуации и на необходимости укрепления плюрализма и международных отношений, а также на укреплении демократических норм при принятии решений по международным вопросам и обеспечении верховенства права в международных отношениях. И это не нравится тем, кто считает, что лучше всех знает, как оценить ситуацию в той или иной стране на Ближнем Востоке, в другой стране Африки или в другой стране Латинской Америки. Всё это — из прошлой эпохи.	Full house translation — pending review We take this position based on our understanding of the situation and on the need to strengthen pluralism and international relations, as well as on strengthening democratic norms in decision-making on international issues and ensuring the rule of law in international relations. And this is not liked by those who believe that they know best how to assess the situation in any given country in the Middle East, in another country in Africa, or in another country in Latin America. All of this is from the past era.
Нам действительно нужно привыкнуть к тому, что в мировой политике существует не один центр . Э-э, что единому миру так и не удалось добиться успеха. что растет число развивающихся экономических и финансовых держав, а с экономической и финансовой мощью приходит и политическое влияние, и что Китай имеет свое независимое видение мира и того, как он должен развиваться. Россия имеет такое же право и такую же возможность быть независимой в своих взглядах, но независимость не означает изоляционизм.	Full house translation — pending review We really need to get used to the fact that there is not one center in world politics. Uh, that the single world has not succeeded. That the number of developing economic and financial powers is growing, and with economic and financial power comes political influence, and that China has its own independent vision of the world and of how it should develop. Russia has the same right and the same opportunity to be independent in its views, but independence does not mean isolationism.
Мы хотим быть и будем независимыми в своей внешней политике, но все мы выступаем за продвижение коллективных подходов к решению всех этих глобальных угроз и вызовов. Только на основе коллективно принятых решений мы сможем найти устойчивый путь вперед. Поэтому, когда люди говорят, что вы современная версия мистера Ноу, из-за использования Россией права вето, вы не видите в этом проблемы для России, ведь в конечном итоге право вето — это мощный инструмент, но оно является негативным фактором.	Full house translation — pending review We want to be and will be independent in our foreign policy, but all of us advocate for advancing collective approaches to addressing all these global threats and challenges. Only on the basis of collectively adopted decisions can we find a sustainable path forward. Therefore, when people say that you are the modern version of Mr. No, due to Russia's use of the veto right, you do not see problems for Russia in this, because ultimately the veto right is a powerful tool, but it is a negative factor.
Например, по Сирии мы голосовали вместе с довольно надежными партнерами: не только Китай, но и Индия, и Россия, Китай и Индия — это три игрока на международной арене, которых трудно игнорировать. Также сложно игнорировать Соединенные Штаты как игрока, и США не стеснялись десятки раз использовать право вето в одиночку, без голосования всех остальных 14 членов Совета Безопасности за какое-либо решение.	Full house translation — pending review For example, on Syria we voted together with fairly reliable partners: not only China, but also India, and Russia, China and India are three players on the international arena that are hard to ignore. It is also hard to ignore the United States as a player, and the United States did not hesitate to use the veto power alone, without the votes of all the other 14 members of the Security Council on any decision.
Итак, мы воспринимаем это довольно реалистично, если хотите, и с философской точки зрения это часть Хартии, это право, установленное в Хартии, и люди, ратифицирующие Хартию, принимают это.	Full house translation — pending review So, we perceive this quite realistically, if you like, and from a philosophical point of view this is part of the Charter, it is a right established in the Charter, and people ratifying the Charter accept this.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Kind: captions Language: en Okay, Minister Lavo, thank you so much uh for taking the time. Uh it's it's it's a pleasure to speak with you. Uh we are doing a special issue of Foreign Policy Magazine uh that will come out in uh May and June and uh dedicated to power all of its uh manifestations. So this is a perfect uh chance to have a conversation with you and I appreciate you taking the time for that.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Um, well, of course, we're interested first of all in Russian and American U relations and uh I'm wondering if you could give me a sense of what you think comes after the recent. I know it was not your word. No, no, and probably wouldn't have. No, it wasn't. You know, the Russian Federation and the United States of America um the two biggest uh nuclear powers in the world. uh but apart from uh nuclear might uh we have a lot in common.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified We have huge territories both of us uh natural resources, technologies, uh science, education uh and of course human capital and um the two countries are basically uh self-sufficient uh but both uh are not trying to be isolated. Isolationism is not allowed in this world.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh because the problems uh which are mushrooming uh the challenges, the threats they are transnational, transborder and it is only through collective effort that uh we can handle uh these problems, these challenges and to reduce those threats. um terrorism, drug trafficking, organized crime, uh proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, um environment, uh food security, energy security, uh all this uh cannot be uh resolved by any single power alone.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Therefore, we uh value very much our partnership with uh foreign countries and the United States is the leading power. Uh and our relations uh have uh uh I would say a lot of positive elements. We managed to move forward uh along the way of nuclear disarmament by agreeing on the start treaty. We managed to uh sign and ratify the agreement which is called one 123 agreement.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified The agreement on cooperation and peaceful uses of nuclear energy which is quite beneficial for both the United States and the Russian Federation and is uh very important for ensuring nuclear safety and nuclear security in third countries. We managed to create an unprecedented mechanism uh for bilateral relations, the presidential commission uh which has some 20 working groups embracing all the manageable uh areas of cooperation.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh we managed to uh sign an agreement on facilitating the visa regime for tourists and businessmen from two countries. Uh and I believe this is very much in the interest of our peoples. Uh I would also refer to the cultural cooperation. Uh last year we celebrated the 20th anniversary of the first Russian settlement in California Fortn uh Fort Ross. Uh also 75th anniversary of the uh flight by Valerichk non-stop flight over the Arctic from the Soviet Union to the United States.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh many uh other cultural events uh really unite our two peoples. Of course uh the relationship between uh such big countries can never be cloudless and uh we have some things which still divide us. Missile defense is uh one case on point. Uh we still believe that uh if uh the Russian Federation and the United States uh bring their minds together uh we can uh develop a common system which would be efficient uh in protecting the Euro Atlantic region from threats coming from outside this region.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified The U situation so far uh is in a deadlock. The US and NATO uh which supported the US believe that the system which is proposed by the United States is flawless and it cannot be changed uh an inch. Uh however uh the government accounting office of the United States Congress recently produced a report uh which challenges the proposed configuration of this missile defense in Europe.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified M uh this is not to say that our experts would agree 100% with this J or report uh but this indicates that even inside the United States there are different opinions as to how to handle the problem of missile proliferation. So we are uh reiterating our openness to discussing this uh issue with the United States provided uh we uh put our brains together and provided our intellectual uh ability is not is not questioned.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified We uh are convinced that doing it together, doing it together with the United States and the Europeans uh would uh would would would not only be uh the most efficient way uh to try to find a response to the threats of missiles missile proliferation, but it would bring our relationship uh with NATO, the Russia and NATO relationship to a qualitatively new level. it will be really uh a step closer to us becoming allies again like we used to be during World War II.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified There are other problems which u negatively affect the relationship between Russia and the United States and the situation which arose after the uh so-called Magnitzky act was adopted by the US Congress is a case on point. I have no doubt that uh the sponsors of that act uh were motivated by the desire uh to have something um instead of the Jackson Venic uh amendment which became an impediment for the American business after Russia joined WTO.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified And just as they wanted to use Jackson Venic uh uh which has been kept artificially after the all immigration problems from the Soviet Union have been uh have been removed and the Russian Federation uh did not deserve the continuation of the Czechovic amendment but they kept it in order to have um uh a leverage uh influencing the Russian Federation politics. And when they understood that this uh amendment was already uh making damage to the American interest, they uh tried to invent something uh to replace it.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified And that's how the Magnitzky act appeared. absolutely artificial act uh which was in fact an attempt uh to replace an anti-sviet amendment uh with anti-Russian legislation. Uh the Americans knew that we would be reacting the way we did.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh we reacted uh you know we adopted our parliament adopted the uh demaakov law uh and uh this is not this is not our choice but this is this is you know the law of the uh politics you uh always uh reciprocate positively or negatively but this is this is something which you cannot change it wasn't invented by us uh it is the law of international relations reciprocity is the key uh although Well, I think uh you say that Americans expected a response, which of course they did, but uh they were surprised and and it seems even many in Russia were surprised by the specifics of the Russian response to have it in include uh this provision about adopted children seemed uh very inmatical.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Well, it's it's a separate theme.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh the problems with the kids who have been adopted in the United States are not unique for the Russian kids. uh we have looked into the uh general problems uh with adoption in the United States and we discovered on the basis of the reports written by American NOS's we discovered that uh not only Russian but uh kids from other countries and the Americanborn kids uh have been uh subject to very unfortunate behavior on the part of the adopted parents and I can only tell you that uh we uh tried very hard uh to make the uh agreement on cooperation uh in the area of adoption work.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified And unfortunately the state department which under that agreement uh undertook uh to make sure that the states uh would allow access uh by the Russian officials to the adopted kids uh in the case uh in case of some problems. uh that this uh this endeavor did not did not materialize and we did not uh get uh access in couple of cases uh where uh a state uh court would not allow Russian consular officials uh to visit kids in families uh where uh these problems were discovered. uh it is not um very often mentioned but uh Russia is not the only country uh which had to do this.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh Kazakhstan for example suspended uh the implementation of the similar agreement on adoption with the United States. Uh so did Vietnam and if I'm not wrong so did Guatemala. So it is a systemic problem inside the United States. uh and I do believe that um the increased uh public attention to this issue uh would help the American authorities to do something about it.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh on the other hand, uh the uh emotional uh atmosphere around this situation uh with adoption uh also helped the Russian authorities to pay more attention uh to the kids uh who for one reason or another uh lose their their parents.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified And we will be doing much more uh than we had been doing before uh to make sure that these kids are treated uh well, that they um have new families. uh there would be more financing uh for this purpose to stimulate the adoption inside the Russian Federation and I am sure the society will feel a positive effect. So uh do you don't see any lasting uh tension in the USRussian relationship as a result of uh this sort of exchange of laws between the two parliament?
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified The you know this this this was not our choice and uh the aggravation of the uh one or another area of the relations between Russia and the United States is not what we want. I understand that it is not what the Obama administration wants as well. I met uh in at the end of February with John Kerry uh and I sensed the same desire uh to move forward uh without of course uh forgetting about the differences and trying to uh find mutually acceptable solution to those different issues.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified But on quite a number of areas, I listed some of them. We have common interest and we uh shall continue to be uh partners in cooperating in cooperation so many international and regional issues.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh I think it was Alex Alexi Pushkov who described both you and Secretary Kerry as professional pragmatists and suggested that that meant you would have a good basis for for getting along with him. uh in particular, possibly in comparison with uh his two predecessors, Secretary Rice, uh with whom you had a a at times famously contentious relationship. Uh what do you think about that? Do you think Well, I I I don't engage in comparing my partners.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh I can only say that I had good personal relations with uh all secretaries of state with whom I had the chance to work. Uh it's another matter that not always these good personal relations uh also at the level of the presidents uh translated uh into some uh positive movement uh in practical terms. But John Kerry is a professional. He is pragmatic and this is a very important quality for a diplomat and especially uh for the secretary of state.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh he has uh very good knowledge of things around the world. uh he has keen interest in uh moving some of the old problems uh out of the deadlock. Uh and we discussed with him uh our potential joint efforts uh on the uh issues of Iranian nuclear program uh nuclear problem of the Korean peninsula and of course everything which relates to the so-called Arab Spring. uh it's really a situation which uh is creating uh more threats so far than uh positive incentives.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Well, I definitely want to talk also about your conversations with him regarding Syria. He's he's uh expressed a willingness and an interest in continuing to find a solution that Russia as well as the United States could put forward uh to the civil war. at the same time he was just criticizing you uh in Saudi Arabia for continuing to sell arms to the Syrian regime.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh well, you know, on the arm sales, we never we never uh tried to hide that we are implementing the contracts which have been signed uh quite some time ago, long before all this started. And those contracts are mostly about uh providing uh the Syrian government with anti-aircraft defensive weapons. And uh it is absolutely clear that uh Syria uh needs uh legitimately defensive capabilities uh because the threats are uh are not invented.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh they are quite real. uh and any country has the legitimate right uh to have defense capabilities uh which are not uh prohibited by any international treaty and we're not violating any.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh so uh I I believe that u it is much more important uh to take uh a better look at the other side of the drama because the opposition is being u armed by offensive weapons by the weapons uh which have been also uh you know infiltrating from from Libya uh including manpeds which is a very dangerous weapon and uh we have to take this uh information into account against the background of the leaders of the Free Syrian Army uh making public statements that uh uh airplanes including civilian airplanes and airports including civilian airports would be legitimate targets.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh this is very dangerous. And um speaking of the Syrian situation in general and about uh the American position and the Russian position, uh we have been um listening for a couple of years during the u previous administration uh of President Obama.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh we have been hearing appeals to us to change our position um all the time. the official representatives of the state department to the white house would be saying we uh call upon Russia and China uh to change their position uh which meant uh the u conviction of Washington that their position was right and I'm gratified uh to note some positive change uh which occurred uh on the part of those uh who have been uh denying any possibility for a dialogue as long as President Assad is uh in Syria.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh we have been consistent. We have been saying that for us priority number one uh is to stop the bloodshed and to save lives. Uh and therefore uh sessation of hostilities and uh dialogue without any preconditions is the best way to achieve this desired goal. Uh and when people were telling us uh well we can support you only if President Assad disappears uh that meant uh one very simple thing that for them priority number one was not saving lives uh but removing the president and changing the regime.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Now we have um been you know witnessing a very welcome change not only from uh Washington, Paris, other European capitals but also from from the Arab countries who are now saying uh things which they uh did not say before namely that there must be beginning of a dialogue. uh the leader of the uh so-called Syrian National Coalition of Revolutionary Forces something Mr. Khativ with whom I met in February uh in in Germany uh he publicly stated that he would like uh to start a dialogue.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Yes, they are putting some preconditions like uh acceptability of negotiators. Uh the same is being done by the government.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh the government has said that they would be open to a dialogue with anyone including with those who um fight the government on the ground except the people who have been engaging in terrorist attacks. uh but they also putting some preconditions but the main thing is that both players expressed the desire for a dialogue and the rest is uh doable by diplomatic means and that's where international mediation could help uh be it Ldar Brahim be it secretary general of the United Nations be it anyone else who would be uh prepared to help arrange the uh parameters for a dialogue, the place, the the the venue, the composition of the delegations.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified But unfortunately, this readiness expressed by Mr. Khatip was not supported by the rest of the coalition and they u basically cancelled the offer uh which is something uh we we do not understand. Uh if this uh war in Syria continues uh I am afraid that uh the military solution uh could only mean u radicalization of the country. Uh military solution can have only two options. The government wins or the opposition wins.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified If the opposition wins on the ground militarily, uh I am afraid uh the people who uh have been selected for uh this national coalition, the people who composed Syrian National Council uh they would not be invited to Syria because the people with the guns, the extremists would have the day.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified And um somehow it is not mentioned uh publicly too often, but when the United States uh listed uh the uh Japatan Nusra as terrorist organization, the members of the coalition of the Syrians of the the this opposition um united in the national coalition, they uh protested publicly saying that those were freedom fighters and this uh is a very important point.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified The Jakatan Nusra is getting a lot of outside financing, a lot of arms and by some assessment uh it is the the most efficient opposition force on the ground and it is uh affiliated with al-Qaeda. So we really have to understand what we are doing uh when we support one uh side or another.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified The people whom uh the French and the Africans are fighting in Malina Those are the same people which uh Europeans supported in in in Libya and the some of the arms used against the French are probably the arms uh the Libyan opposition received from France. So we we we we must you know take a broader look at the situation. We cannot say well Libya is not Syria, Syria is not Mali, Mali is not Tunis, Tunis is not Egypt. Uh this is absolutely true.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Each country is different but the process which is underway uh in the context of this Arab Spring uh is certainly a comprehensive issue uh involving so many so many u aspects that we cannot afford the luxury of just uh limiting ourselves at each uh at at every given mo moment uh by a situation in country X forgetting about the ramifications. Do you feel that you were misled on the Libya resolution into supporting something that uh Russia in fact does not support?
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Well, we we stated clearly that the mandate given by the resolution on on which we and the Chinese abstained uh was grossly violated. The no-fly zone uh is about not allowing the u military aircraft uh flying and uh that's it and that's it. The coalition was not patrolling the no-fly zone and was not ensuring no fly zone regime. It was attacking targets on the ground directly participating in the uh internal conflict. Mhm. Do you think there are any situations in which humanitarian intervention is justified?
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Well, um you know this issue has been discussed a lot including in the United Nations.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh it is um a general generally accepted rule and norm of international law that sovereignty uh cannot be used as a pretext for gross violation of human rights, ethnic cleansing, genocide, um military crimes and all this uh has been uh clearly spelled out in 2005 uh when the United Nations General Assembly uh was convened uh at the summit level and adopted a declaration. where this responsibility to protect concept uh was described.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified It clearly stated uh that declaration that uh the priority is given to the efforts of the states themselves who have the obligation the primary obligation to protect their population. Uh that the priority must be given to political means. uh and then uh only in case when a state uh exhausts all its uh possibilities and is not able to protect the population, it's only then that the international community can uh interfere uh but only when the security council so decides. So this issue is closed.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh the the the rules have been agreed. It's a consensus uh resolution declaration. Uh and yes, my my answer is yes. There are some situations when when this interference uh is inevitable and of the decision of the security council. How would you describe your own uh view of uh international relations? Many people with whom I've spoken have have suggested that you are ultimately a a realist, a Russian realist, and that you're not looking for ideology uh to play a role as much as defending Russia's national interest.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Is that a fair uh assessment? Well, that's at least that's uh what what I believe we are trying to do. I don't uh believe an ideology in international relations. Uh I started you know to work as a diplomat during the Soviet days and uh in spite of ideology being very high on the communist party agenda.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified I can assure you that in practical terms uh we have always been trying to be pragmatic and uh this is the case uh now when the Russian Federation is uh promoting a policy uh internationally which will be uniting countries not really creating some ide artificial ideological dividing lines. Uh we have enough ideological dividing lines already. U the situation in Europe is a case in point. uh NATO uh has lost its uh data uh after the disappearance of the Soviet Union and the Wasa treaty.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh this year this year's um Afghanistan was was a uniting factor. Uh then we have the year 2014 when NATO would leave Afghanistan though not entirely. Uh but NATO is clearly in the search of u the reason to exist basically and the new uh concept which NATO endorsed uh at this at at its latest summit um raises some questions because NATO which was created as a defensive alliance is now proclaiming its right to act militarily anywhere anywhere on earth.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh if NATO believes that uh its interests have been affected negatively, uh it certainly is a new twist uh in thinking uh and also uh you know it creates it it comes into confrontation with the NATO obligations with NATO members obligations under the United Nations charter uh and under the organization of security and cooperation uh in Europe uh because uh we have proclaimed uh in OC the principle of indivisible security and we said that no one of us would increase our security no one would increase his security at the expense of security of others uh and u missile defense is a case uh in point uh because missile defense is certainly considered by Russia as creating problems for our security that's why we again and again come back to this uh but ideally we would like this principle of indivisible security to be made legally binding.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh now it is just a political declaration. So this is uh something which uh illustrates the uh remaining um ideological elements in foreign policy.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh I am convinced that NATO uh is becoming more and more ideological and its u expansion is absolutely artificially promoted uh creating unnecessary dividing lines as I said um because uh we have nothing which which which uh would really separate us uh in practical we have the same concerns we have the same threats we have the same challenges uh and u to keep the closed military alliance in a situation when we need to get united uh universally is really not helpful.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified The new um the new Russian foreign policy concept that President Putin signed uh last month in February speaks of Russia as playing a balancing role in the world against whom is Russia balancing and do you see the United States or NATO as an adversary these days? No, we don't see them as adversary and the uh Russian military doctrine says that we u see a danger not in NATO as such but in NATO trying to play a global role with global military reach.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh NATO making its uh military posture universal. not NATO as such but this uh intention to grab everything.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified And the second uh again not threat uh but danger we see in uh NATO expansion uh accompanied by moving military infrastructure uh closer to our borders. when the uh NATORussia Council was created, uh when the Warsaw treaty was uh dismantled, when the Soviets were even before the NATO Russia Council was created, when the Soviets were moving out of Europe, there was a deal uh which was repeated uh later that there would be no movement of NATO uh eastward. report.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh then this oral pledge uh was not honored and when the Russian Federation and NATO established their relationship in the late '9s, uh there was a pledge on paper that there would be no uh substantial combat capacity of NATO moved to the territory of new members. uh this is not honored either.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Therefore, we would really be uh very much eager uh not to uh be satisfied with political promises uh but rather get some uh legally binding guarantees uh that's why we u have the position on the missile defense which I uh explained to you. Do you see any uh changes in you've been Russian foreign minister now for longer than than anyone in the post Soviet period.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh have you do you see any changes in uh Russia's foreign policy position in that period of time and do you have you seen any change between having President Medved in office and the return of President Putin to power? uh uh answering your first question uh question, I would come back to what I uh skipped uh in your previous uh remark regarding the balancing role of of the Russian Federation. Uh you know, we have been um um you remember how we together with France and Germany uh protested the war in Iraq in 2003.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Um and um you remember how we uh what position we took on Libya, what position we are taking on Syria and we have been told uh by so many Western partners uh that you would pay for this, you are losing the Arab world and so on and so forth. Uh which was uh which was wrong and which is wrong. Uh in Iraq we have the government which is the result of the American intervention and this government wants to be friends with Russia.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified The new Libyan authorities uh want us to continue u the projects economic and otherwise uh which we started with the Gaddafi regime. Not because uh they u you know just have some preferences uh but because they believe that in the modern world it is not uh it is not um wise just to rely on somebody and not to talk to others especially since uh we have a lot to offer. We have history with the uh Arab world. We have a long history with the African countries when we strongly supported decolonization.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh and by the way the the the borders which were left after decolonization uh probably are the uh biggest source of trouble in Africa when ethnic groups were just cut in the middle artificially. uh Rwanda, Uganda, Mali, whatever. Uh so take Sudan uh and uh countries countries remember that we have always been consistent. We were never saying that, you know, we uh can support somebody uh in uh Libya and then fight the same people in Mali.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Terrorists are terrorists and uh uh when aggressive instincts uh are being um are not being stopped uh we are getting into trouble. So my answer is uh very straightforward. uh we have always been telling the truth and that's what um our famous diplomat uh Alexander Gorchikov uh was writing and he was one of the one of the most efficient and brilliant diplomats in Europe. Uh he was always saying that openness is the key to success in foreign policy.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified You have always to lay down your interests uh bluntly uh the way people would understand. And uh even if these interests do not coincide with the interest of your partner, even if these interests contradict the interests of your partner, if those are legitimately uh uh aspired interest, if they are uh clearly explained, it is always uh better uh than to try uh to go into Bzantian style uh intrigues and so on and so forth.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh as for the changes in the Russian foreign policy, yes, we we we we have more uh domestic strength if you wish, we have become stronger economically. We have been uh successfully resolving uh the social problems, raising the level of uh living, the standards of living of the population.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified And yes, a lot is still to be done, but the change is uh very much uh noticed uh and we feel the change and Russia feels uh more uh assertive if you wish. uh not aggressive but assertive and we uh have been getting out of the situation where we found ourselves in the early 90s when the Soviet Union disappeared and the Russian Federation became what it is you know uh with no borders uh with uh no budget, no money uh and with huge uh problems starting with lack of food and uh uh so on and so forth.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh it is a very different country now and of course we can now pay more attention uh to looking after our legitimate interest in the uh areas where we uh were absent for quite some time after the uh demise of the Soviet Union. Africa is a case in point. Uh we now have uh Russian companies who show interest to doing business in Africa. Africans are interested in having us there. They don't want uh just to be dominated by one or two investors. They want uh more countries.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh and I believe this is a healthy this is a healthy desire. Latin America uh we uh economically have become strong enough to look that way as well and there are uh many uh projects which are mutually beneficial between us and Latin American countries. Asian Pacific.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Of course, uh we are a Pacific power and uh it is absolutely important for us including for the development of the Far East and Eastern Siberia and the Far East uh to get closely integrated in the AsianPacific uh economic uh process. uh that's you know basically what what we uh are doing now in addition to uh traditional uh diplomacy in Europe with China, India uh we have much much broader uh agenda because we uh have more capacity economically first of all you know I've interviewed uh many of uh your former counterparts in the United States and I was asking them about uh their dealings with you And of course, every one of them said they're very impressed by your experience.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified And uh they all mentioned your uh very successful negotiating style. Uh I think there's not as much of a negotiating tradition perhaps in the United States, but I'm curious, you've dealt with so many different uh US ambassadors of the United Nations and secretaries of the of the State Department. What is it that Americans get wrong about Russia? What what mistakes do they make?
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified For example, on Syria, I've many times heard back in Washington them say over the last year, "Well, the Russians are going to change their position this time or we really feel like, you know, they're going to change and and you have not changed your position. They there was a misreading perhaps there." Well, I cannot read people's mind. So, uh I don't know why they were saying these things.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh by the way uh when you talk to the uh serious uh professionals uh from the United States or Europe uh about Syria or about something similar in the in the Middle East, they all basically share the analysis which I presented to you. Uh but somehow when they go public, they keep saying Assad must go otherwise nothing will stop. uh they they fully understand the the dangers of u spreading uh extremism uh in the region and they fully understand the need uh to talk and to to to agree.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh so I frankly United Nations experience is a very uh useful one for those who want to develop negotiating skills because multilateral diplomacy is always uh challenging where you have to take into account the positions of so many players. In the security council there are 15 members in the general assembly almost 200 members. uh and you have always to to to to uh take into account the uh interests of of so many of so many states.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Um and I mentioned about Gorchikov and one of his biggest achievements was the uh restoration of the uh Russian influence in Europe after the uh defeat in the Crimean War. And he did it without uh as one of the Russian poets wrote when Tuchief wrote about him, he did it without moving a gun. Uh he did it did it exclusively through diplomacy uh based on his wonderful and deep knowledge of the nuances of uh politics uh of Britain uh France, Italy, Prussia, Austria. Uh that's that's an example.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified And uh I yes I even brought uh one one quotation uh from Gorchikov regarding uh how to organize the world affairs. Uh he wrote that uh universal peace uh is a basis for natural relations between state among states and this and this basis ensures equality of all countries big and small. uh foreign intervention uh into the domestic matters is unacceptable. It is unacceptable to use force in international relations especially uh by the countries who consider themselves leaders of civilization.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh I believe this is the uh the first the first u attempt to write a concept which later became the United Nations charter. Uh so I I really admire this man and he uh served uh great service to to to his country and we are trying to promote his traditions. Are there any other uh examples of uh present day or more modern uh uh leaders who uh you think are particularly successful in uh in the practice of foreign relations? Well, there are many.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified I don't want I don't want uh to to use I mean to name those who are still functioning and uh I I can forget uh somebody but most of my of my partners uh in Europe for example uh I respect deeply uh many of them have achieved a lot for their countries and of course uh the American secretaries of state as I said I had very good personal relations with all of them uh and professionally it was quite uh enjoyable.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh so my my colleagues uh in Asia in Africa we have been receiving some ministers from Africa recently and I have many friends in Latin America. It is interesting that many ministers on all these continents uh have been some time ago my colleagues in the United Nations and uh this is also uh you know helping uh in doing business in our new capacity. Right. So that's been your your key uh experience professionally was it was those years at the United Nations.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Many people are very critical of the United Nations today and suggest that it's it's actually lost a fair amount of its uh ability to uh help constructively solve problems. People blame uh maybe the secretary general isn't very successful. Do do you agree that the United Nations uh doesn't play the role that it used to? Well, the United Nations is not is uh some you know animal which which is on its own. The United Nations is the member states and uh first of all the security council.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified It was not by by uh just uh chance that the security council was created uh the way uh it was namely with five permanent members.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh it was on the on the insistence of the United States that the permanent membership institute institution was was u created. uh in the United Nations uh because the US didn't want to repeat the failure of the League of Nations which did not provide for the uh special role to be played by big powers uh and uh the model which was chosen and endorsed for the United Nations I think it is it is a working model and and it is an efficient one.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified When people say that uh Russia and China vetoed a resolution and therefore the organization has been paralyzed uh it is a distortion of the uh original idea of the founding fathers. The veto was introduced again by the American insistence uh to make sure that uh decisions to be taken which has direct influence uh on international peace and security uh that these decisions are viable and implementable.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified It was clearly understood by those who wrote the UN charter that if one of the great powers uh objects then the decision would not really be uh made because uh it wouldn't work. That's that's basically uh the the the reason for uh this veto to be included in the chatter. So when uh and when countries sign and ratify the charter they accept this they accept the veto right.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified So the veto is not uh somebody's uh capric it's a part of the decision making process and if there is a veto then by the charter the decision is not going to be to be effective and it is not going to be taken. So uh when we speak about the efficiency of the United Nations uh people normally mean only one thing whether the security council supported uh the position of the west or not. Mhm.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified That's basically it because because the mass media is dominated by by by the west and when uh a president of a western country says this leader uh is not going uh to be running his country and that's my decision and then the security council does not support a resolution on this uh on this issue. uh then of course uh the the media starts playing this theme uh saying that the security council and the United Nations have been paralyzed and inefficient and so on and so forth.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Um it is it is a game uh to a large extent. But um of course the public attention uh is u uh always given uh to some uh scandalous uh issues to conflicts, killings, murders, wars. Let's not forget that the United Nations uh is a system of almost two dozen organizations uh electricity um civil aviation uh maritime shipping uh international health standards international labor standards.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified So many things uh which we take for granted every day are being helped uh by the existence uh of the of the United Nations system and its u specialized agencies. Unfortunately, it is not something which which sells by by the media as the veto. That's right. And in recent years, Russia and China uh have increasingly voted together when there have been vetos or the threat of veto.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Does that make is China Russia's closest partner then would you say in well we are strategic partners with China and uh I believe that uh the reason is I mean the reason why we uh see eye to eye on international issues is because uh we want the same thing in international relations to be achieved democracy and the rule of law the rule of law is being promoted by our western friends uh exclusively for domestic uh policies I mean for at the level of uh nation states as soon as you ask them to discuss the rule of law internationally they are not so so eager.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified This is true. uh although many of them would say that Russia and China are rooting together at the security council uh because you have a shared uh mutual concern in uh making sure that you have the ability to impose authoritarian policies at home uh uh without any threat of intervention internationally.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Well, that's an explanation which probably suits the uh western uh vision of uh Russia and China or the vision of those in the west who would like to present Russia and China uh as as a as a difficulty in international relations.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified We have been uh taking the position uh on the basis of uh our understanding of the situations uh and on the basis of the need to strengthen uh pluralism and international relations to strengthen uh democratic uh rules in uh deciding uh on international issues and ensuring the the uh supremacy of the law in international relations.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified And um this is not uh liked by by those who believe that they know better than anyone else how to qualify a situation in one country in the Middle East or a situation in another country in Africa or another country in Latin America. It is it is all uh from from the from the past epoch. Uh we have to really get used to the fact that there are more than one center in the world politics.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh that the uniolar world never succeeded. uh that there are uh more growing emerging economic financial powers and with economic and financial might also comes political influence and that uh China has its independent view of the world and how it should be um evolving. Russia has the same uh right and the same ability to be uh independent in in its thinking but independent does not mean uh isolationist.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified We want to be and we will be independent in our foreign policy but we are all in favor of promoting collective approaches to all these global threats and challenges. it is only on the basis of uh collectively developed decisions that we can find sustainable way forward.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified So when people say you're a modern version of Mr. know uh because of this Russian use of the veto you don't see that as a problem for Russia the idea that ultimately the veto is a powerful tool but it is a negative you know on Syria we voted with uh quite uh solid uh partnersh not only China India also voted with us and uh uh Russia China and India those are three players in international arena which uh you can hardly ignore.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Uh you can also hardly ignore the United States as a player and the United States did not shy away dozens of times to use veto uh alone without all other 14 members of the security council voting in favor of something. So it's and we're taking this we're take we're taking this quite quite realistically if you wish and philosophically this is part of the charter this is the right in established in the charter and people ratifying the charter accept this