Transcript

Interview of the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation S.V. Lavrov for the documentary film \"Nuremberg\

2025-11-16 RU · EN (house translation, pending review) Source Digest Readout

English includes full house translations. Review is pending; untranslated passages and selected digest glosses remain labelled.

Русский	English
Вопрос: Как и когда появилась идея создания Международного военного трибунала? Какую роль сыграла советская сторона в его организации и проведении? Почему позиция Советского Союза, заключавшаяся с самого начала в необходимости суда, была чужда Великобритании и США на ранних этапах создания трибунала? С.В.Лавров: Именно Советский Союз был главной движущей силой в вопросе инициирования дискуссий, а затем и создания трибунала.	Full house translation — pending review Question: How and when did the idea of establishing the International Military Tribunal arise? What role did the Soviet side play in organizing and conducting it? Why was the Soviet Union’s position, which from the very beginning held that a trial was necessary, alien to Britain and the United States in the early stages of establishing the tribunal? S. V. Lavrov: It was the Soviet Union that was the main driving force in initiating discussions and subsequently establishing the tribunal.
1 The USSR as the Initiator and Driving Force of the Tribunal
Вопрос о необходимости обеспечить неотвратимость наказания нацистских преступников впервые был официально поставлен в ноте советской стороны в ноябре 1941 г. Такие же ноты с приложением фактов кровавых, жестоких преступлений нацистов направлялись неоднократно, в том числе в 1942 г. и в 1943 г. В 1942 г. было специальное Заявление советского правительства, которое призывало все страны сотрудничать в задержании, розыске, высылке и предании суду нацистских преступников.	Full house translation — pending review The question of the need to ensure that Nazi criminals would inevitably be punished was first officially raised in a Soviet note in November 1941. Similar notes, with facts about the Nazis’ bloody, brutal crimes attached, were sent repeatedly, including in 1942 and 1943. In 1942, there was a special Statement by the Soviet government calling on all countries to cooperate in detaining, searching for, expelling, and bringing Nazi criminals to trial.
2 Western (British and American) Reluctance Toward a Judicial Process
Поначалу наши британские и американские коллеги (хотя диалог с участием Советского Союза в таком составе «завязался» достаточно быстро) воспринимали эту идею прохладно по разным причинам. Но «на поверхности» выдвигался аргумент о том, что этот вопрос политический и, мол, не надо из него делать «судебные идеи».	Full house translation — pending review At first, our British and American colleagues—although dialogue in this composition involving the Soviet Union got underway fairly quickly—were cool toward this idea for various reasons. But “on the surface,” the argument put forward was that this was a political question and, supposedly, there was no need to turn it into “judicial ideas.”
В октябре 1943 г. на встрече министров иностранных дел СССР, Британии и Соединенных Штатов в Москве – она проходила в Особняке МИД России на Спиридоновке – среди прочих договоренностей было зафиксировано, что сотрудничество по выявлению преступников и преданию их суду будет налажено и организовано. Окончательно эта идея оформилась в Ялте , а на «бумаге» юридически закреплена в октябре 1945 г. в Лондоне, когда трибунал и был создан.	Full house translation — pending review In October 1943, at a meeting of the foreign ministers of the USSR, Britain, and the United States in Moscow—it took place at the Russian Foreign Ministry’s Mansion on Spiridonovka—it was recorded, among other agreements, that cooperation in identifying criminals and bringing them to trial would be established and organized. The idea took its final shape in Yalta and was legally formalized “on paper” in October 1945 in London, when the tribunal was established.
4 Independent Soviet Prosecution Efforts
Был подписан устав этого трибунала, который лег в основу всей дальнейшей деятельности. Отмечу, что в ходе всех этих усилий Советский Союз действовал самостоятельно. Он не просто полагался на то, что мы создадим когда-то международную структуру, и она «восстановит справедливость». В 1942 г. была создана Чрезвычайная государственная комиссия по установлению и расследованию злодеяний немецко-фашистских захватчиков и их сообщников .	Full house translation — pending review The charter of this tribunal was signed and became the basis for all its subsequent activities. I would note that throughout all these efforts the Soviet Union acted independently. It did not simply rely on the idea that we would someday create an international body and it would “restore justice.” In 1942, the Extraordinary State Commission for the Establishment and Investigation of the Atrocities of the German Fascist Invaders and Their Accomplices was established.
Она аккумулировала факты, материалы и свидетельства очевидцев и организовывала несколько процессов в последующие годы и после завершения Великой Отечественной войны, в том числе в Краснодаре, Харькове и других городах. Опыт, накопленный в рамках этих судебных инициатив, активно использовался и в Нюрнбергском трибунале . В итоге американцы и британцы согласились на создание судебного органа. Поначалу у них были сомнения. Существуют такие интересные факты.	Full house translation — pending review It amassed facts, materials and eyewitness testimony and organized several trials in subsequent years and after the end of the Great Patriotic War, including in Krasnodar, Kharkov and other cities. The experience gained through these judicial initiatives was also actively used at the Nuremberg Tribunal. Ultimately, the Americans and the British agreed to establish a judicial body. Initially, they had doubts. There are some interesting facts of this kind.
3 Roosevelt's and Churchill's Preference for Summary Execution
На каком-то этапе тогдашний Президент США Ф.Д.Рузвельт сказал, дескать, зачем создавать трибунал, лучше просто показательно расстрелять 50 тыс. немецких офицеров. А тогдашний Премьер-министр Британии У.Черчилль тоже говорил, мол, лучше их убивать, а не судить. Это интересное наблюдение.	Full house translation — pending review At some stage, the then US President F. D. Roosevelt said, in effect, why establish a tribunal; it would be better simply to shoot 50 thousand German officers as an example. And the then British Prime Minister W. Churchill also said, in effect, that it would be better to kill them than to try them. This is an interesting observation.
5 Western Fear of Exposing the Root Causes of the War
С другой стороны, в сдержанном поначалу отношении англосаксов к идее создания международного судебного органа просматривалось, как пишут современники в своих воспоминаниях, опасение, что судебное разбирательство каким-то образом «заденет» вопрос о первопричинах войны, о том, почему после Версальского договора страны, которые должны были обеспечивать сдерживание Германии при А.Гитлере, стали с ним сотрудничать.	Full house translation — pending review On the other hand, as contemporaries write in their memoirs, the Anglo-Saxons’ initially reserved attitude toward the idea of establishing an international judicial body revealed a fear that the trial would somehow “touch on” the question of the root causes of the war, of why, after the Treaty of Versailles, countries that were supposed to ensure the containment of Germany under A. Hitler began cooperating with him.
6 The 1935 Anglo-German Naval Agreement
Хорошо известно, что британцы в 1935 г. подписали с А.Гитлером морское соглашение, в соответствии с которым в грубейшее нарушение Версальского мирного договора они взялись единолично содействовать Германии в том, чтобы она в пять раз увеличила состав своих военно-морских сил по сравнению с ограничениями, установленными в Версальском договоре. Безусловно, есть еще такая вещь, как Мюнхенский сговор 1938 г., сыгравший решающую роль в том, что впоследствии получило название «умиротворение агрессора».	Full house translation — pending review It is well known that in 1935 the British signed a naval agreement with A. Hitler under which, in flagrant violation of the Treaty of Versailles, they undertook on their own to help Germany increase the size of its navy fivefold compared with the limits established in the Treaty of Versailles. Of course, there is also such a thing as the Munich collusion of 1938, which played a decisive role in what subsequently became known as “appeasement of the aggressor.”
7 The Munich Agreement and the "Appeasement of the Aggressor"
Нашим западным коллегам не хотелось слишком «уходить» в историю, чтобы она стала известна и о ней вновь заговорили. Эти факты тогда были хорошо известны. Надо отдать должное, что в итоге возобладало правильное понимание ответственности, и аргументы Советского Союза, который был главным инициатором и движущей силой в создании Нюрнбергского трибунала, были услышаны и приняты. Здесь наша роль абсолютно неоспорима. Вопрос: Как Вы считаете, какова историческая значимость Нюрнбергского процесса в послевоенные годы?	Full house translation — pending review Our Western colleagues did not want to go too far “into” history, lest it become known and be discussed again. These facts were well known at the time. To their credit, a proper understanding of responsibility ultimately prevailed, and the arguments of the Soviet Union, which was the main initiator and driving force behind the establishment of the Nuremberg Tribunal, were heard and accepted. Our role here is absolutely indisputable. Question: In your opinion, what was the historical significance of the Nuremberg Trials in the postwar years?
8 Nuremberg Principles as the Foundation of Modern International Law
Как это повлияло на изменение мирового миропорядка? С.В.Лавров: Постановление Нюрнбергского трибунала содержит принципы, впервые сформулированные в ходе того процесса. Они легли в основу современного международного права. Они отменяли право «сильного», закрепляли неприемлемость силовых методов и нарушение гуманитарных принципов в любых конфликтах.	Full house translation — pending review How did this affect the transformation of the world order? S. V. Lavrov: The ruling of the Nuremberg Tribunal contains principles first formulated during that trial. They became the foundation of modern international law. They abolished the right of the “strongest” and established the unacceptability of methods of force and violations of humanitarian principles in any conflict.
Наиболее существенно принцип неотвратимости наказания за военные преступления, агрессию, за преступления против человечности, геноцид формулировался уже в международном, универсальном масштабе в ходе Нюрнбергского процесса. Затем это органично отразилось в содержании многочисленных конвенций, принимаемых в ООН и других форматах. Также это нашло отражение в принципах международного права, которые легли в основу деятельности Комиссии международного права ООН.	Full house translation — pending review Most significantly, the principle of the inevitability of punishment for war crimes, aggression, crimes against humanity and genocide was formulated on an international, universal scale during the Nuremberg Trials. This was then naturally reflected in the substance of numerous conventions adopted at the UN and in other formats. It was also reflected in the principles of international law that formed the basis for the work of the UN International Law Commission.
Международный суд ООН в значительной степени учитывает в своей работе то, что было сделано в Нюрнберге. Особое значение Нюрнбергского приговора заключается в том, что он установил отсутствие сроков давности преступлениям против человечности, геноцида, военных преступлений. Нацистская идеология, партия, такие структуры, как СС, СД и прочие были запрещены навеки. К огромному сожалению, эти части постановления сейчас подвергаются существенному испытанию и часто нарушаются.	Full house translation — pending review The International Court of Justice takes considerable account in its work of what was done at Nuremberg. The particular significance of the Nuremberg judgment lies in its establishment of the absence of statutes of limitations for crimes against humanity, genocide and war crimes. Nazi ideology, the party, and organizations such as the SS, SD and others were banned forever. To our enormous regret, these parts of the ruling are now being severely tested and frequently violated.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Question: How and when did the idea emerge to set up an International Military Tribunal? What role did the Soviet Union play in organising and conducting it? Why, at the early stages of the tribunal’s creation, did Britain and the United States consider the Soviet Union’s position on the need for a trial to be irrelevant? Sergey Lavrov: It was the Soviet Union that was the main driver in initiating discussions and then establishing the tribunal.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified The issue of the need to ensure the inevitability of punishment for Nazi criminals was first officially raised in a note from the Soviet side in November 1941. Similar notes quoting facts of the Nazis’ bloody and brutal crimes were sent repeatedly, including in 1942 and in 1943. In 1942, the Soviet government released a special statement which called on all countries to cooperate in the detention, search, expulsion and trial of Nazi criminals.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified At first, our British and American colleagues (even though the dialogue with the participation of the Soviet Union in such a format started soon enough) were chilly to this idea for various reasons.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified However, they expressly articulated a point that this issue was political and that it was not necessary to turn it into “judicial ideas.” In October 1943, at a meeting of the foreign ministers of the USSR, Britain and the United States in Moscow – it was held in the Russian Foreign Ministry Mansion on Spiridonovka – it was stated, among other agreements, that cooperation on identifying criminals and bringing them to justice would be established and organised.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified This idea took its final shape in Yalta, and was legally put on paper in October 1945 in London, when the tribunal was established. The statute of this tribunal was signed, which formed the basis for all its subsequent activities. I should note that throughout all these efforts, the Soviet Union also acted independently.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified It did not just hope that we would one day create an international entity and it would “restore justice.” In 1942, an Extraordinary State Commission was set up to establish and investigate the atrocities of the Nazi invaders and their accomplices. The commission gathered facts, materials and eyewitness accounts and organised several trials in the following years and after the end of the Great Patriotic War, including in Krasnodar, Kharkov and other cities.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified The experience gained through these judicial initiatives was actively used at the Nuremberg Trials. As a result, Americans and the British agreed to set up a tribunal. Initially, they had their doubts, and there are interesting facts about it. At some point, President of the United States Franklin D.Roosevelt said that, instead of establishing a tribunal, it would be better to have 50,000 German officers publicly executed by firing squad.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Then Prime Minister of the UK Winston Churchill also said that they should be executed rather than tried in court. What an interesting observation.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified On the other hand, as contemporaries write in their memoirs, the Anglo-Saxons were initially expressed their reluctance to setting up an international judicial body which was due to their fears that a trial would somehow lead to the question of what caused the war in the first place, and why, after the Treaty of Versailles, the countries that were supposed to deter and contain Hitler’s Germany, went on to collaborate with Hitler.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified It is a well-known fact that in 1935, the British signed a maritime agreement with Adolf Hitler, according to which, in grave violation of the Treaty of Versailles, they single-handedly assisted Germany with increasing its naval forces five times against the limits as set forth in the Treaty of Versailles.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Certainly, there is also the 1938 Munich Agreement which played a decisive role in what was subsequently labelled “appeasing the aggressor.” Our Western colleagues were reluctant to dive deeper into history and did not want it to resurface again in the public debate. These facts were widely known at the time.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified It would be fair to say that eventually, a reasonable understanding of accountability prevailed and the arguments of the Soviet Union – the primary initiator and driving force of the Nuremberg Trials – were heard and accepted. Our role here is absolutely indisputable. Question: In your opinion, what is the historical significance of the Nuremberg Trials in the post-war period? How did they affect the world order?
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Sergey Lavrov: The verdicts of the Nuremberg Trials contained the principles that were first developed during the trials. They served as the foundation of modern international law. They abolished the might makes right principle and established that it is unacceptable to use force and violate humanitarian principles in any conflicts.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified It was during the Nuremberg Trials that the principle of inevitable punishment for war crimes, aggression, crimes against humanity and genocide was articulated on an international and universal scale. Subsequently, this was organically reflected in numerous conventions adopted by the UN and in other frameworks. It was also reflected in the principles of international law that formed the basis of the UN International Law Commission.
Matching Russian passage has not been identified	Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Nuremberg verdicts have largely defined the operations of the International Court of Justice too. What makes the Nuremberg verdicts especially important is that they eliminated the statute of limitations for crimes against humanity, genocide, and war crimes. The Nazi ideology and party, and structures like the SS and SD were prohibited forever. It is deeply regrettable that some of these rulings have been challenged and often breached these days.