Transcript
Lavrov Interview on Syria for ARD
English includes full house translations. Review is pending; untranslated passages and selected digest glosses remain labelled.
| Русский | English |
|---|---|
| Россия отправила несколько самолетов в Великобританию для эвакуации россиян из Сирии. Это начало конца? Нет, нет, нет, нет. Сегодня мы сделали заявление. Министерство пояснило, что были доставлены гуманитарные грузы, еще одна партия гуманитарной помощи. |
Full house translation — pending review Russia sent several aircraft to the United Kingdom to evacuate Russians from Syria. Is this the beginning of the end? No, no, no, no. Today we made a statement. The Ministry clarified that humanitarian cargo was delivered, another batch of humanitarian aid. |
| 1 The Syria flights were humanitarian, not an evacuation | |
| Мы регулярно поставляем гуманитарную помощь всем сирийцам, и мы только что проинформировали российских граждан, проживающих в Сирии, в основном это женщины, вышедшие замуж за сирийских граждан, о том, что у них будет возможность вывезти их оттуда, потому что некоторые из них выразили желание переждать этот тяжелый период в истории Сирии. И около 100 из них решили воспользоваться этими самолетами, чтобы поехать в Россию и провести время со своими родственниками. |
Full house translation — pending review We regularly deliver humanitarian aid to all Syrians, and we have just informed Russian citizens residing in Syria, mainly women who have married Syrian citizens, that they will have the opportunity to take them out of there, because some of them expressed a desire to wait out this difficult period in Syria's history. And about 100 of them decided to use these aircraft to travel to Russia and spend time with their relatives. |
| По сравнению с количеством зарегистрированных россиян в Сирии, я думаю, 8000, а около 24000 — нет, я думаю, меньше, но большинство из них не зарегистрированы. 3 или 5000, я точно не помню, были зарегистрированы в консульских органах России. Посольство в Сирии, однако, гораздо больше людей не выразили заинтересованности в временном выезде, но среди тех, кто выразил желание уехать, лишь около 100 человек выразили готовность использовать эти два самолета для поездки в Россию. |
Full house translation — pending review Compared to the number of registered Russians in Syria, I think 8000, and about 24000 — no, I think less, but most of them are not registered. 3 or 5000, I don't remember exactly, were registered at Russian consular offices. The embassy in Syria, however, many more people did not express interest in temporary departure, but among those who expressed a desire to leave, only about 100 people expressed willingness to use these two aircraft to travel to Russia. |
| 2 The veto as a right and a responsibility, not a caprice | |
| Это не эвакуация в каком-либо смысле этого слова. Россия блокировала в истории ряд резолюций ООН. Почему? Ну, вы знаете, голосование, которое Россия и Китай провели, — принятие трех резолюций за очень короткий период времени — было отражением нашей ответственности в отношении Устава Организации Объединенных Наций. Вето — это не привилегия, вето — это не каприз, вето — это неотъемлемое право постоянных членов в соответствии с Уставом Организации Объединенных Наций. |
Full house translation — pending review This is not evacuation in any sense of the word. Russia blocked a number of UN resolutions in history. Why? Well, you know, the vote that Russia and China conducted — the adoption of three resolutions in a very short period of time — was a reflection of our responsibility towards the Charter of the United Nations. Veto is not a privilege, veto is not a whim, veto is an inherent right of permanent members in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations. |
| При создании ООН отцы-основатели договорились, что они не должны повторять печальный опыт Лиги Наций, которая основывалась на принципе « одна страна — один голос», демократическом принципе на первый взгляд, но этот конкретный принцип не позволял Лиге Наций действовать должным образом. Как вы знаете, американцы были недовольны тем, что вышли из состава ООН. |
Full house translation — pending review When the UN was founded, the founders agreed that they should not repeat the sad experience of the League of Nations, which was based on the principle of 'one country, one vote', a democratic principle at first glance, but this specific principle did not allow the League of Nations to act properly. As you know, Americans were dissatisfied with having left the UN. |
| Поэтому американская помощь в 1943-1945 годах, когда обсуждалась новая Всемирная организация в разгар Второй мировой войны, заключалась в том, что американцы настаивали на предоставлении особых прав ключевым державам. Следовательно, право вето отражает убеждение отцов-основателей в том, что, если ключевые державы не согласятся, любое решение не будет работать, не будет продуктивным и не принесет результатов. |
Full house translation — pending review Therefore, American assistance in 1943-1945 years, when a new world organization was discussed in the midst of World War II, consisted of Americans insisting on granting special rights to key powers. Thus, the veto right reflects the founders' belief that if key powers do not agree, any decision will not work, will not be productive, and will not yield results. |
| Поэтому принцип вето закреплен в Конституции, и каждый член ООН, подписавший и ратифицировавший Конституцию, принял это. Поэтому мы выполнили свою обязанность не допустить принятия Советом Безопасности резолюций, которые содержали угрозы санкций и очень реальный риск внешнего вмешательства. Мы были убеждены, что должны основываться на решениях, принятых Советом Безопасности еще до того, как были использованы эти вето, а именно на заявлении председателя от августа 2011 года, инициированном Россией. |
Full house translation — pending review Therefore, the veto principle is enshrined in the Constitution, and every UN member who signed and ratified the Constitution accepted this. Therefore, we fulfilled our duty to prevent the Security Council from adopting resolutions containing threats of sanctions and a very real risk of external intervention. We were convinced that we should be based on decisions adopted by the Security Council before these vetoes were used, namely on the statement of the chairman of August 2011 year, initiated by Russia. |
| 3 The Geneva Communiqué as the only viable basis for settlement | |
| А затем резолюции 2042 и 20143, которые развили принципы, заложенные в первоначальном документе, а именно: сирийцы сами должны разрешить кризис; насилие во всех его формах должно быть прекращено всеми сторонами; международное сообщество должно поощрять всеобъемлющий сирийский диалог; и не должно быть никакой возможности для внешнего вмешательства. Как я уже сказал, это было далее развито в двух резолюциях, принятых на основе плана «Шесть пунктов» Кофе-Анан. |
Full house translation — pending review Then resolutions 2042 and 20143, which developed the principles laid down in the original document, namely: Syrians themselves must resolve the crisis; violence in all its forms must be stopped by all parties; the international community must encourage comprehensive Syrian dialogue; and there must be no possibility for external intervention. As I have said, this was further developed in two resolutions adopted on the basis of the Kofi Annan 'Six-Point Plan'. |
| На основе этого плана в Сирии были развернуты наблюдатели ООН, и на основе этого плана в июне 2012 года в Женеве состоялось заседание рабочей группы, на котором был разработан консенсусный документ, содержащий все необходимые компоненты для прекращения боевых действий и начала политического процесса. |
Full house translation — pending review Based on this plan, UN observers were deployed in Syria, and based on this plan, a working group meeting took place in Geneva in June 2012 of the year, at which a consensus document was developed containing all necessary components for ending hostilities and beginning a political process. |
| 4 Russia cares about Syria's fate, not personalities | |
| Не по нашей вине этот документ был заморожен с тех пор, потому что люди, подписавшие этот документ, когда дело дошло до практической реализации Женевского коммюнике, говорили: «Ну, это хорошо, но прежде всего Асад должен уйти». Это не является частью Женевского консенсуса, и не потому, что мы защищаем активы от его народа, совсем нет. Честно говоря, нас не волнуют личности. |
Full house translation — pending review This document was frozen since then not because of us, because the people who signed this document, when it came to the practical implementation of the Geneva communique, said: 'Well, this is good, but first of all, Assad must go.' This is not part of the Geneva consensus, and not because we are protecting assets from his people, absolutely not. Honestly, we are not concerned with personalities. |
| Нас волнует судьба сирийского народа, судьба Сирии как единого суверенного независимого государства, многоконфессионального, многоэтнического, где проживало множество религий и этнических групп, и они живут там в мире и относительном процветании. Откровенно говоря, конечно, политические проблемы, которые побудили оппозицию к протестам, существовали, мы не отрицаем их. Власти допустили много ошибок, они слишком долго не реагировали на законные просьбы оппозиции, а затем протесты переросли в насилие с обеих сторон. |
Full house translation — pending review We are concerned with the fate of the Syrian people, the fate of Syria as a single sovereign independent state, multi-confessional, multi-ethnic, where many religions and ethnic groups lived, and they live there in peace and relative prosperity. Frankly, of course, the political problems that prompted the opposition to protests existed, we do not deny them. The authorities made many mistakes, they did not respond to the legitimate requests of the opposition for too long, and then the protests turned into violence on both sides. |
| И теперь мы, к сожалению, наблюдаем дальнейшую милитаризацию конфликта: оппозиция набирает все больше и больше сил, получая поддержку извне, а правительство, конечно, отвечает на насилие оппозиции, которое, в свою очередь, было мотивировано ошибками правительства. Так что это порочный круг. |
Full house translation — pending review And now we, unfortunately, observe further militarization of the conflict: the opposition is gaining more and more strength, receiving support from abroad, and the government, of course, responds to the violence of the opposition, which, in turn, was motivated by the mistakes of the government. So this is a vicious circle. |
| Необходимо четко понимать, что любые угрозы со стороны Совета Безопасности будут немедленно использованы теми, кто хотел бы спровоцировать внешнее вмешательство, потому что, когда вы угрожаете, необходимо иметь механизмы мониторинга, чтобы следить за поведением обеих сторон, потому что в Сирии существует более двух сторон: оппозиция не едина, она действует против правительства параллельно с довольно большим количеством террористических групп. |
Full house translation — pending review It is necessary to clearly understand that any threats from the Security Council will be immediately used by those who wish to provoke external intervention, because when you threaten, you need monitoring mechanisms to monitor the behavior of both sides, because in Syria there are more than two sides: the opposition is not united, it acts against the government in parallel with a fairly large number of terrorist groups. |
| Одна из этих групп была признана террористической организацией Соединенными Штатами, что вызвало протесты со стороны Национальной коалиции сирийской оппозиции. Так что это очень плохая и очень сложная ситуация. Поэтому, что бы мы ни делали, нашим приоритетом номер один должно быть отбросить все заявления, все предлоги, все условия. Если наш приоритет — спасение жизней, то мы должны сказать им сейчас, без каких-либо условий, прекратить боевые действия. |
Full house translation — pending review One of these groups was designated as a terrorist organization by the United States, which caused protests from the National Coalition of Syrian Opposition. So this is a very bad and very complicated situation. Therefore, whatever we do, our number one priority must be to reject all statements, all excuses, all conditions. If our priority is saving lives, then we must tell them now, without any conditions, to stop hostilities. |
| Все, кто участвовал в Женевской конференции, представляют собой сочетание внешних субъектов, оказывающих влияние на ту или иную сирийскую сторону, и если мы все синхронно скажем им прекратить боевые действия, мы должны признать их террористической группировкой. делегации для переговоров о создании временного переходного органа управления, а затем для наделения этого органа полномочиями в процессе подготовки новой конституции и новых выборов. |
Full house translation — pending review All those who participated in the Geneva Conference represent a combination of external subjects influencing one or another Syrian side, and if we all synchronously tell them to stop hostilities, we must recognize them as a terrorist group. delegations for negotiations on the creation of a transitional governing body, and then for empowering this body in the process of preparing a new constitution and new elections. |
| Это единственный путь, если мы все искренне говорим, что хотим спасти жизни и не допустить продолжения насилия. Все это закреплено в Женевском сообществе, которое, как мы по-прежнему считаем, может быть реализовано и должно быть реализовано без каких-либо предварительных условий. С другой стороны, приоритетом некоторых наших партнеров является не спасение жизней, а смещение активов, устранение активов — так или иначе. |
Full house translation — pending review This is the only way if we all sincerely say that we want to save lives and prevent the continuation of violence. All this is enshrined in the Geneva community, which, as we still believe, can be implemented and must be implemented without any preliminary conditions. On the other hand, the priority of some of our partners is not saving lives, but asset shifting, asset elimination - one way or another. |
| 5 Saving lives versus the geopolitical goal of removing Assad | |
| Асад не собирается уступать, он сказал это публично, и он не будет слушать ни нас, ни китайцев, ни иранцев, никого. Он сказал: «Я сириец, я родился здесь, я защищаю свой народ, и я умру в Сирии». Поэтому, если люди считают, что при таких обстоятельствах, услышав его позицию о том, что прежде чем что-либо политическое может произойти, его необходимо сместить, то, конечно, это наша позиция. |
Full house translation — pending review Assad is not prepared to yield, he said this publicly, and he will not listen to us, nor to the Chinese, nor to the Iranians, nor to anyone. He said: 'I am a Syrian, I was born here, I am defending my people, and I will die in Syria'. Therefore, if people believe that under such circumstances, having heard his position that before anything political can happen, he must be removed, then, of course, that is our position. |
| Но те, кто продвигает это, должны понимать, что цена этой геополитической цели — смещения Асада — это все больше и больше жизней мирных жителей в Сирии. Нам нужно сделать выбор: либо мы хотим спасти жизни и тогда нам придётся на время забыть о том, кто несёт ответственность, и собрать всех за столом переговоров, либо, если нам наплевать на жизни и забота о судьбе активов, тогда, конечно, никто не сможет нам помочь. Вы были там в феврале прошлого года, чтобы поговорить с нами. |
Full house translation — pending review But those who promote this must understand that the price of this geopolitical goal—the ouster of Assad—is increasingly the lives of civilians in Syria. We need to make a choice: either we want to save lives and then we must temporarily forget about who is responsible and bring everyone to the negotiating table, or if we do not care about lives and concern for the fate of assets, then of course no one can help us. You were there last February to talk with us. ] |
| 6 Impressions of Assad and reforms announced too late | |
| Каково было ваше впечатление на тот момент? Наше впечатление было таким: он не совсем вписывается в происходящие события. Он был немного больше склонен считать, что история на его стороне. Он отвечал на наши призывы ускорить реформы и сказал, что это будет сделано, что это входит в его план, что это входит в его график. Но, к сожалению, он объявил о реформах всего через несколько месяцев. Февраль уже был поздним месяцем для реформ. Если бы реформы были объявлены летом 2011 года, всё могло бы пойти по-другому. |
Full house translation — pending review What was your impression at that point? Our impression was that he did not quite fit with the events unfolding. He was somewhat more inclined to believe that history was on his side. He responded to our calls to accelerate reforms and said it would be done, that it was part of his plan and timetable. Unfortunately, he announced reforms only several months later. February was already too late for reforms. Had they been announced in the summer of 2011, everything might have gone differently. |
| Суть реформ развивалась в правильном направлении: впервые за многие десятилетия была создана многопартийная система. Это была новая конституция, разрешающая многопартийную систему, закон о средствах массовой информации, закон о местном самоуправлении и еще кое-что. И, как вы знаете, они провели референдум по новой конституции, а также выборы. Правительство сейчас, технически говоря, состоит из правящей партии и оппозиционных партий. Но это было немного поздно. |
Full house translation — pending review The essence of the reforms developed in the right direction: for the first time in many decades, a multiparty system was created. This was a new constitution allowing a multiparty system, a law on mass media, a law on local self-government, and a few other things. And, as you know, they held a referendum on the new constitution, as well as elections. The government now, technically speaking, consists of the ruling party and opposition parties. But this was a bit late. ] |
| 7 Assad's January plan, rejected by the opposition | |
| В январе президент Асад представил новый план, пригласив всю патриотически настроенную оппозицию, выступающую против внешнего вмешательства, сесть за стол переговоров для национального диалога, дальнейшего развития законодательной реформы, подготовки к новым выборам и разработки дорожной карты для новой Сирии. Этот план был отвергнут оппозицией. И я думаю, что это ошибка. Да, эти его идеи, вероятно, не удовлетворяют всех. |
Full house translation — pending review In January, President Assad presented a new plan, inviting all patriotic opposition groups opposing foreign interference to sit at the negotiating table for a national dialogue, further development of legislative reform, preparation for new elections, and development of a roadmap for a new Syria. This plan was rejected by the opposition. And I think that this is a mistake. Yes, his ideas, probably, do not satisfy everyone. |
| И если вы спросите меня, я бы также предположил, что мы могли бы предложить некоторые улучшения в предложенном плане, но это то, что продвигается действующим президентом Сирии, и это касается диалога и национального примирения. Спасение страны от полного уничтожения, спасение страны от распада на части — это предложение, со всеми его недостатками, потенциальными недостатками, я бы сказал, сформулированное в контексте политического диалога. |
Full house translation — pending review And if you ask me, I would also suggest that we could offer some improvements to the proposed plan, but this is what is being promoted by the current President of Syria, and it concerns dialogue and national reconciliation. Saving the country from total destruction, saving the country from disintegration into parts — this is a proposal, with all its shortcomings, potential shortcomings, I would say, formulated in the context of political dialogue. |
| 8 The opposition offers only regime overthrow, no political platform | |
| Когда оппозиция говорит: «Это чушь, мы этого не принимаем», — возможно, им не нравится многое в этом предложении, возможно, оно им совсем не нравится. Но оппозиция не предлагает никакой политической альтернативы. Единственное, что объединяет оппозицию, — это свержение режима. И это тоже можно понять: им не нравится этот режим, они устали от него. Но оппозиция за все эти почти два года так и не представила никакой конструктивной платформы. |
Full house translation — pending review When the opposition says: 'This is nonsense, we do not accept this,' perhaps they dislike much about this proposal, perhaps they dislike it entirely. But the opposition offers no political alternative. The only thing that unites the opposition is the overthrow of the regime. And this can also be understood: they dislike this regime, they are tired of it. But the opposition has not presented any constructive platform for all these almost two years. ] |
| 9 The Doha coalition contradicts Geneva | |
| Когда была сформирована Национальная коалиция в Дохе, на встрече различных оппозиционных групп с участием некоторых западных стран, стран Персидского залива и Турции, они заявили о создании этой коалиции как объединяющего механизма и приняли заявление, в котором говорилось, что главная цель этой коалиции — свержение режима и демонтаж его структуры, что абсолютно противоречит Женевской коммуне. |
Full house translation — pending review When the National Coalition in Doha was formed, at a meeting of various opposition groups involving some Western countries, Gulf countries and Turkey, they declared the creation of this coalition as a unifying mechanism and adopted a statement stating that the main goal of this coalition is the overthrow of the regime and dismantling its structure, which absolutely contradicts the Geneva Communiqué. |
| В Женеве все согласились, что нам нужен переходный период, но структуры страны должны оставаться нетронутыми, чтобы не повторять ошибок, допущенных, например, в Ираке, когда вся система, вся государственная система была разрушена американскими оккупационными силами. Поэтому я бы очень хотел, чтобы мы встретились с оппозиционными группами, со всеми ними, и мы бы бросили им вызов. Ребята, мы хотим, чтобы вы были частью решения. |
Full house translation — pending review In Geneva, everyone agreed that we need a transition period, but the country's structures must remain intact so as not to repeat the mistakes made, for example, in Iraq, when the entire system, the entire state system, was destroyed by American occupying forces. Therefore, I would very much like for us to meet with opposition groups, with all of them, and we would challenge them. Guys, we want you to be part of the solution. |
| Итак, хорошо, вы ненавидите режим, но у вас должна быть какая-то программа для вашей страны, не для режима, для вашего народа, программа, которая бы излагала ваше политическое видение того, как вы придете к новой Сирии. И до сих пор за два года они не смогли ее представить. В чем же на самом деле, с геополитической точки зрения, проблема в Сирии? В этом контексте, почему у нас так много игроков в Сирии? Мы, в нашем отношении к происходящему в Сирии, не основываемся на каких-либо геополитических соображениях. |
Full house translation — pending review So, okay, you hate the regime, but you must have some kind of program for your country, not for the regime, for your people, a program that would outline your political vision of how you will come to a new Syria. And so far, over two years, they have not been able to present it. What is the problem in Syria, from a geopolitical point of view? In this context, why do we have so many players in Syria? We, in our approach to what is happening in Syria, do not base ourselves on any geopolitical considerations. |
| 10 Russia has no selfish geopolitical interest in Syria | |
| У нас нет каких-либо значительных личных интересов, эгоистичных, экономических, военных или других в сирийской ситуации. Ну, базы морской пехоты могли бы... Как вы знаете, используемые термины могут быть изменены, что касается местоположения, но геополитический контекст вводится не нами, а людьми, которые говорят, что режим должен быть сменён. |
Full house translation — pending review We have no significant personal interests, selfish, economic, military or other, in the Syrian situation. Well, Marine bases could... As you know, the terms used can be changed regarding the location, but the geopolitical context is introduced not by us, but by people who say that the regime must be changed. |
| Ими движет, вольно или невольно, хорошо известная концепция Большого Ближнего Востока и Северной Африки, введённая много лет назад Джорджем Бушем-младшим, который сказал, что демократизация Ближнего Востока — наша главная цель. Я думаю, любой заинтересованный наблюдатель, следящий за происходящим в регионе, может сделать свои собственные выводы относительно результатов этих демократизаций. |
Full house translation — pending review They are driven, willingly or unwillingly, by the well-known concept of the Greater Middle East and North Africa, introduced many years ago by George W. Bush, who said that democratizing the Middle East is our main goal. I think any interested observer, following what is happening in the region, can make their own conclusions regarding the results of these democratizations. |
| Что касается демократизации, у нас всё больше и больше проблем в странах, которые, например, американцы в какой-то момент объявили маяками демократии. Проблемы всё ещё далеки от решения в Афганистане и Ираке. У нас довольно тревожная ситуация в Египте, где им ещё предстоит найти решения, которые бы объединили нацию. У нас всё ещё много проблем в Ливии. Мы разговаривали с новыми ливийскими властями, они заинтересованы в продолжении нашего сотрудничества, но они действительно сталкиваются с огромными проблемами. |
Full house translation — pending review As for democratization, we have more and more problems in countries that, for example, Americans at some point declared beacons of democracy. Problems are still far from being solved in Afghanistan and Iraq. We have a rather worrying situation in Egypt, where they still have to find solutions that would unite the nation. We still have many problems in Libya. We talked with the new Libyan authorities, they are interested in continuing our cooperation, but they are indeed facing huge problems. |
| Проблемы возникают в том, что касается центрального правительства, осуществляющего свою власть на всей территории Ливии. И если посмотреть на юг, то люди, входившие в коалицию, свергнувшую режим Каддафи, вероятно, хотели только воевать и не могли жить в мирных условиях. Поэтому многие из них сейчас воюют в Мали и используют оружие, в том числе современное, которое им поставляли западные державы и некоторые страны региона во время борьбы с Каддафи. |
Full house translation — pending review Problems arise insofar as it concerns the central government exercising its authority over the entire territory of Libya. And if one looks to the south, then the people who were part of the coalition that overthrew the Gaddafi regime probably only wanted to fight and could not live in peaceful conditions. Therefore, many of them are now fighting in Mali and using weapons, including modern ones, which were supplied to them by Western powers and some regional countries during the struggle against Gaddafi. |
| 11 The Greater Middle East project and the Arab Spring spiral | |
| Так что, знаете, история наносит ответный удар, и эта спираль насилия действительно очень опасна. Поэтому, раз уж вы задали вопрос о геополитическом контексте, к сожалению, мы стали свидетелями мирного подхода. Была революция в Тунисе, все думали, как поддержать эту революцию, затем была революция в Египте, затем в Ливии, затем в Йемене, затем в Мали, теперь в Сирии. Это не геополитическое видение, а геополитическое стремление к повсеместной демократии, а также, в целом, путь развития человечества. |
Full house translation — pending review So, you know, history strikes back, and this spiral of violence is indeed very dangerous. Therefore, since you asked about the geopolitical context, unfortunately, we have become witnesses to a peaceful approach. There was a revolution in Tunisia, everyone thought about how to support this revolution, then there was a revolution in Egypt, then in Libya, then in Yemen, then in Mali, now in Syria. This is not a geopolitical vision, but a geopolitical striving for universal democracy, and also, in general, the path of human development. |
| Это абсолютно логично, но неконструктивно и абсолютно контрпродуктивно утверждать, что должна преобладать только западная демократия. В Афганистане, где существуют многовековые традиции, западной демократии быть не может, то же самое можно сказать об Ираке, Иране и Египте. Необходимо понимать, что ключевые принципы свободных выборов, например, и рыночной экономики являются основополагающими факторами любого более или менее успешного развития любой нации, и все больше стран приходят к этому выводу. |
Full house translation — pending review It is absolutely logical, but unconstructive and absolutely counterproductive to assert that only Western democracy should prevail. In Afghanistan, where there are multi-century traditions, Western democracy cannot exist; the same can be said about Iraq, Iran, and Egypt. It is necessary to understand that key principles of free elections, for example, and a market economy are fundamental factors of any more or less successful development of any nation, and more and more countries are coming to this conclusion. |
| 12 Western democracy cannot be imposed on ancient civilisations | |
| Но навязывать странам с долгой историей и очень древними цивилизациями принципы, понятные Западу, но совершенно чуждые им, — принципы организации демократического и рыночного экономического процесса — действительно саморазрушительно и может лишь создать ситуацию, когда это внушительное и властное отношение обернется против нас. У нас есть такие страны, как Саудовская Аравия, Катар, Иран, Турция. |
Full house translation — pending review But imposing on countries with a long history and very ancient civilizations principles that are understood in the West but are completely alien to them — principles of organizing a democratic and market economic process — is indeed self-destructive and can only create a situation where this impressive and authoritative stance turns against us. We have such countries as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran, Turkey. |
| В регионе есть Сирия и Израиль, поэтому многие из этих стран в прошлом не славились демократическим прогрессом, поскольку это королевства, у них своя собственная повестка дня. Я думаю, если говорить об Израиле и Иране, то у них есть демократические традиции, хотя и разные. Израиль – демократическое государство, и никто не может оспаривать это ни с какой точки зрения. |
Full house translation — pending review In the region there are Syria and Israel, so many of these countries in the past were not known for democratic progress, since they are kingdoms, they have their own agenda. I think, if we are talking about Israel and Iran, then they have democratic traditions, although different. Israel is a democratic state, and no one can dispute this from any point of view. |
| Иран, да, у них есть определенные фильтры в избирательной системе, например, но когда эти фильтры преодолеваются кандидатами, начинается настоящая борьба, настоящая избирательная борьба, и этого нельзя отрицать. Но опять же, это отражает специфические особенности общества, и нельзя требовать этого прямо сейчас, здесь и сейчас. Все должны соответствовать критериям, которые, например, устанавливает OSC. |
Full house translation — pending review Iran, yes, they have certain filters in the electoral system, for example, but when these filters are overcome by candidates, a real struggle begins, a real electoral struggle, and this cannot be denied. But again, this reflects specific features of society, and one cannot demand this right now, here and now. Everyone must meet the criteria that, for example, OSC sets. |
| OSC помогал организовывать выборы в Афганистане, и мы все знаем, что OSC был достаточно мудр, чтобы не применять те же критерии, что и к некоторым европейским странам, хотя OSC обычно применяет разные критерии к странам бывшего Советского Союза и к старым демократиям, что является двойным стандартом. В любом случае, позвольте мне вернуться к серьезным попыткам в Сирии создать своего рода урегулирование между оппозицией и Асадом. Кофан приступил к работе в феврале прошлого года. Кто тогда избрал Кофана? |
Full house translation — pending review OSC helped organize elections in Afghanistan, and we all know that OSC was wise enough not to apply the same criteria as to some European countries, although OSC usually applies different criteria to countries of the former Soviet Union and to old democracies, which is a double standard. In any case, let me return to serious attempts in Syria to create a kind of settlement between the opposition and Assad. Kofan began work in February of last year. Who then elected Kofan? |
| И почему же он потерпел неудачу в самом конце? Ну, первая часть вашего вопроса очень проста. Генеральный секретарь Организации Объединенных Наций и Генеральный секретарь Лиги арабских государств спросили Кофана, заинтересован ли он в должности Совместного представителя, Совместного специального посланника Организации Объединенных Наций. Он согласился, и это было вынесено на рассмотрение Совета Безопасности, и Совет Безопасности приветствовал назначение. Мы решительно поддержали это. |
Full house translation — pending review And why did he fail at the very end? Well, the first part of your question is very simple. The Secretary-General of the United Nations and the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States asked Kofane whether he was interested in the position of Joint Representative, Joint Special Envoy of the United Nations. He agreed, and it was brought before the Security Council, and the Security Council welcomed the appointment. We strongly supported this. |
| Но прежде чем я углублюсь в тему, которую вы затронули, я хотел бы сказать несколько слов о том, что предшествовало назначению Кофана. Назначению предшествовала инициатива Лиги арабских государств в ноябре 2011 года, которую мы решительно поддержали. Инициатива касалась необходимости прекращения боевых действий правительством и оппозицией. |
Full house translation — pending review But before I delve into the topic you raised, I would like to say a few words about what preceded Kofane's appointment. Preceding the appointment was an initiative by the League of Arab States in November 2011 year, which we strongly supported. The initiative concerned the need for the government and the opposition to cease hostilities. |
| Наблюдатели Лиги арабских государств, проверявшие соблюдение режима прекращения огня, предприняли определенные усилия, чтобы убедить сирийский режим поддержать эту инициативу, поскольку изначально они не хотели этого делать. Оппозиция также пообещала сотрудничать. Затем наблюдатели Лиги арабских государств были направлены в Сирию. Они начали работу в конце ноября, и примерно через месяц после начала своего пребывания в Сирии представили свой первый доклад Совету Безопасности, который был не просто односторонним. |
Full house translation — pending review League of Arab States observers, who were verifying compliance with the ceasefire regime, made certain efforts to persuade the Syrian regime to support this initiative, as they initially did not want to do so. The opposition also promised to cooperate. Then League of Arab States observers were deployed to Syria. They began work at the end of November, and about a month after the start of their presence in Syria submitted their first report to the Security Council, which was not simply one-sided. |
| 13 The Kofi Annan appointment and the Arab League initiative | |
| В докладе говорилось о нарушениях с обеих сторон, и приводятся примеры нарушений режима прекращения огня, как их видело правительство, а также оппозиционные группы. Это, по-видимому, не понравилось некоторым людям, которые хотели смены режима в Сирии. Поэтому, прежде чем Совет Безопасности смог рассмотреть этот доклад, миссия была прервана решением не Лиги арабских государств, а членов Совета сотрудничества стран Персидского залива, и наблюдателям пришлось отозвать свой доклад. |
Full house translation — pending review The report stated about violations by both sides, and provides examples of ceasefire violations as seen by the government and opposition groups. This apparently did not please some people who wanted regime change in Syria. Therefore, before the Security Council could consider this report, the mission was interrupted by a decision not by the League of Arab States, but by members of the Gulf Cooperation Council, and the observers were forced to withdraw their report. |
| Таким образом, в тот момент, когда миссия попыталась представить объективную картину, обвиняя не только правительство, но и оппозицию, Затем был отозван Кофи Анана, который представил свой широко известный план «Шесть пунктов»: прекращение насилия, отсутствие внешнего вмешательства. Правительство несет ответственность, но оппозиция также должна взять на себя свою ответственность. План предусматривает осуждение насилия, международный мониторинг и начало диалога. Мы поддержали этот план и направили наблюдателей ООН. |
Full house translation — pending review Thus, at the moment when the mission attempted to present an objective picture, accusing not only the government but also the opposition, Kofi Annan was then recalled, who presented his widely known six-point plan: cessation of violence, absence of external interference. The government bears responsibility, but the opposition must also take on its own responsibility. The plan provides for condemnation of violence, international monitoring, and the start of dialogue. We supported this plan and deployed UN observers. |
| Мы снова объяснили Дамаску, что для них важно не возражать, и они согласились. Наблюдатели ООН были развернуты и объективно докладывали о нарушениях с обеих сторон — правительства и оппозиции. Примеров было довольно много, включая нарушения международного гуманитарного права. Эти наблюдатели находились там в очень сложных условиях, они были частью продолжающегося давления. |
Full house translation — pending review We explained to Damascus again that it was important for them not to object, and they agreed. UN observers were deployed and reported objectively on violations by both sides — the government and the opposition. There were quite a few examples, including violations of international humanitarian law. These observers were there in very difficult conditions; they were part of the continuing pressure. |
| 14 UN observers reported objectively — and were driven out | |
| Иногда даже происходили вооруженные провокации, и я разговаривал с главными наблюдателями, в том числе в Женеве, когда 30 июня 2012 года они присутствовали на встрече этой рабочей группы. Я не хочу называть имен, но они признали, что у них было гораздо больше проблем со стороны оппозиции, чем со стороны правительства. |
Full house translation — pending review Sometimes even armed provocations occurred, and I spoke with the main observers, including in Geneva, when 30 June 2012 they were present at a meeting of this working group. I do not want to name names, but they acknowledged that they had far more problems from the opposition than from the government. |
| Эта миссия наблюдателей, по-видимому, также двигалась в направлении попытки представить более объективную картину происходящего, но затем, по мере того как они объективно сообщали о ситуации, они подвергались все большему давлению, включая насильственное давление и провокации, и им пришлось отступить. |
Full house translation — pending review This mission of observers, apparently, also moved in the direction of attempting to present a more objective picture of what was happening, but then, as they objectively reported on the situation, they were subjected to increasing pressure, including violent pressure and provocations, and they were forced to retreat. |
| Моя точка зрения заключается в том, что эти два примера показывают, что есть люди, которые не заинтересованы в международном мониторинге ситуации, которые не заинтересованы в международном присутствии, будь то наблюдатели ООН или ООН, на местах в качестве стабилизирующего фактора именно потому, что это стабилизирующий фактор, и эти люди хотят дестабилизировать ситуацию и спровоцировать внешнее вмешательство на основе разжигания напряженности с помощью правительства. непропорциональные действия как предлог, и, э-э, я думаю, что те из ваших зрителей, кто следит за ситуацией, должны будут сделать свой собственный выбор. |
Full house translation — pending review My point is that these two examples show that there are people who are not interested in international monitoring of the situation, who are not interested in international presence, whether UN observers or the UN on the ground as a stabilizing factor precisely because it is a stabilizing factor, and these people want to destabilize the situation and provoke external intervention based on fomenting tension with the government. Disproportionate actions as a pretext, and, uh, I think that those of your viewers who are following the situation will have to make their own choice. |
| Я думаю, они знают факты. Могу я просто добавить, что он ушел, как... извините, Кофи Анан, он уехал к Асаду, вернулся, он посетил вас в Москве 16 марта, он был в Дамаске, а затем позже, 24 марта, он приехал в Москву. |
Full house translation — pending review I think they know the facts. May I just add that he left, as... excuse me, Kofi Annan, he left to Assad, returned, he visited you in Moscow 16 March, he was in Damascus, and then later, 24 March, he came to Moscow. |
| Его первый доклад о гибкости режима Асада был таким: если нам удастся стабилизировать ситуацию хотя бы относительно, стабилизировать ее с помощью этих международных наблюдателей, то он действительно будет рассчитывать на то, что страны, имеющие большее влияние на оппозицию, подтолкнут ее к диалогу с режимом. И, как я сказал в Женеве, мы никогда не соглашались ни на какие предварительные условия. |
Full house translation — pending review His first report on the flexibility of the Assad regime was this: if we can stabilize the situation at least relatively, stabilize it with these international observers, then he will indeed count on countries that have greater influence on the opposition pushing it towards dialogue with the regime. And, as I said in Geneva, we never agreed to any preconditions. |
| Было лишь заявлено, что правительство и оппозиция должны прекратить борьбу, должны назначить переговорщиков, и эти переговорщики должны согласовать состав и полномочия. переходного органа управления, который будет осуществлять полную исполнительную власть, а также власть над правоохранительными органами и силами безопасности Сирии. |
Full house translation — pending review It was only stated that the government and the opposition must stop fighting, must appoint negotiators, and these negotiators must agree on the composition and powers of the transitional authority that will exercise full executive power as well as power over Syria's law enforcement agencies and security forces. |
| Поэтому, когда было принято Женевское соглашение, у Дамаска возникли сомнения, и мы снова задействовали наши ресурсы, если хотите, и убедили их, заявив, что они готовы работать на этой основе, несмотря на то, что это было непросто, потому что они говорили: «Нет смены режима, мы не хотим обсуждать переходный период, потому что у нас выборы в 2014 году». |
Full house translation — pending review Therefore, when the Geneva Agreement was adopted, Damascus had doubts, and we again deployed our resources, if you will, and convinced them, stating that they were ready to work on this basis, despite the fact that it was difficult, because they said: 'No regime change, we do not want to discuss a transitional period, because we have elections in 2014 year.' |
| Но затем они заявили, что готовы работать на основе Женевского соглашения, и все собравшиеся в Женеве обязались обеспечить, чтобы все сирийские партии сделали то же самое. Но, к сожалению, на следующее утро оппозиция отвергла Женевское соглашение. И те, кто имеет влияние на оппозицию, будь то страны региона, европейцы или американцы, так и не смогли убедить оппозицию изменить свое мнение, изменить свой конфронтационный настрой. |
Full house translation — pending review But then they stated that they were ready to work on the basis of the Geneva Agreement, and all those gathered in Geneva pledged to ensure that all Syrian parties did the same. But, unfortunately, the next morning the opposition rejected the Geneva Agreement. And those who have influence over the opposition, whether they are regional countries, Europeans, or Americans, were still unable to convince the opposition to change their mind, to change their confrontational stance. |
| Я упоминал о создании этой Сирийской национальной коалиции революционных сил и оппозиции в ноябре. Да, в Дохе, а затем, как я уже сказал, они приняли двухстраничное заявление, в котором говорилось, что наша главная цель — не конструктивная позиция, а свержение режима, демонтаж его институтов, и, в- третьих, никакого диалога с правительством. Когда я позвонил нашим американским друзьям, моему коллеге, госсекретарю, и спросил: «Вы постоянно говорите, что Женева — лучшая надежда? Знаете, для нас это основа. |
Full house translation — pending review I mentioned the creation of this Syrian National Coalition of revolutionary forces and the opposition in November. Yes, in Doha, and then, as I have already said, they adopted a two-page statement in which it was stated that our main goal is not a constructive position, but the overthrow of the regime, the dismantling of its institutions, and, thirdly, no dialogue with the government. When I called our American friends, my colleague, the Secretary of State, and asked: 'You constantly say that Geneva is the best hope? You know, for us this is the foundation.', |
| Но вы приветствуете создание Коалиции?», которая ответила: «Нет, Женева, по сути, никакого диалога, демонтажа институтов. Какова причина, по которой вы приветствуете это развитие событий? Разве вы не можете повлиять на них?» И они ответили: « Для нас было крайне важно объединить их позиции, что касается платформы, на которой они объединились, мы сможем повлиять на них позже». |
Full house translation — pending review But you welcome the creation of the Coalition?', which answered: 'No, Geneva, essentially, no dialogue, dismantling of institutions. What is the reason why you welcome this development? Can you not influence them?' And they answered: 'For us it was extremely important to unify their positions, regarding the platform on which they united, we can influence them later.' |
| Через пару недель состоялась встреча друзей Сирии с оппозицией в Марракеше, Марокко, и мы ожидали каких-то изменений в этом абсолютно деструктивном подходе Коалиции, но ничего не произошло. Затем мы спросили наших друзей в США и Европе: «Вы сказали, что сможете повлиять на оппозицию в направлении готовности к диалогу?» Мы не получили ответа на вопрос о принятии Женевских принципов, и тот же вопрос задают оппозиционные группы прямо здесь, в этом же зале. |
Full house translation — pending review A meeting of Syria's friends with the opposition took place in Marrakesh, Morocco, a couple of weeks ago, and we expected some changes in this absolutely destructive approach of the Coalition, but nothing happened. Then we asked our friends in the United States and Europe: 'You said you could influence the opposition towards readiness for dialogue?' We did not receive an answer to the question about accepting the Geneva Principles, and the same question is being asked by opposition groups right here, in this very hall. |
| Мы встречались с большинством из них, а также в Стамбуле, Париже, Лондоне, США и Каире. Мы постоянно говорим им, что призываем их отреагировать на то, что было согласовано консенсусом в Женеве группой, состоящей из пяти постоянных членов Совета Безопасности: Лиги арабских государств, Кувейта, Ирака, Турции, Европейского союза и Организации Объединенных Наций. Мы говорим им: « Вот чего мы все от вас хотим». Они ничего не говорят. |
Full house translation — pending review We met with most of them, as well as in Istanbul, Paris, London, the United States, and Cairo. We constantly tell them that we are calling on them to respond to what was agreed by consensus in Geneva by a group consisting of five permanent members of the Security Council: the League of Arab States, Kuwait, Iraq, Turkey, the European Union, and the United Nations. We tell them: 'This is what we all want from you.' They say nothing. |
| « Послушайте, пока Асад не исчезнет, мы не можем повлиять на это, мы не можем это осуществить». Я не думаю, что кто-то может. Некоторые говорят: «Давайте предложим президенту Асаду какую-нибудь сделку». Хорошо, если кто-то готов предложить сделку, сделайте это напрямую президенту. Если люди говорят, что без отставки президента Сирии невозможно вести диалог, как я сказал в начале нашей дискуссии, они должны понимать, что он не уйдет. |
Full house translation — pending review 'Listen, as long as Assad does not disappear, we cannot influence this, we cannot achieve it.' I do not think anyone can. Some say: 'Let us offer President Assad some kind of deal.' Well, if someone is ready to offer a deal, do it directly to the president. If people say that without the resignation of the President of Syria it is impossible to hold a dialogue, as I said at the beginning of our discussion, they must understand that he will not leave. |
| Потому что мы ему этого не говорим, но он принял решение, и все, кто с ним встречался, включая Лар Брахима и Коф, могут подтвердить, что создается впечатление, будто он не собирается уходить. Поэтому те, кто говорит, что он должен уйти, прежде чем что-либо произойдет, должны признать ответственность за все большее количество жизней сирийцев, потому что война продолжится. Был один исторический случай, очевидно, в апреле прошлого года, когда было достигнуто перемирие, и именно тогда начался план Коф. |
Full house translation — pending review Because we are not telling him this, but he has made a decision, and everyone who has met with him, including Lakhdar Brahimi and Kofi, can confirm that the impression is created that he does not intend to leave. Therefore, those who say that he must leave before anything happens must accept responsibility for the increasing number of Syrian lives lost, because the war will continue. There was one historical incident, obviously in April of last year, when a ceasefire was reached, and it was then that Kofi's plan began. |
| Да-да, почему это не сработало? Что произошло? Потому что в начале апреля все выглядело более-менее нормально, но потом все пошло не так. Я пытался, я пытался упомянуть эту ситуацию в своих предыдущих замечаниях. Я считаю, что были люди, которым не нравилось, что перемирие не увенчалось успехом, потому что у них была и до сих пор есть своя собственная повестка дня, а именно смена режима в Сирии. |
Full house translation — pending review Yes-yes, why did it not work? What happened? Because in early April everything looked more or less normal, but then everything went wrong. I tried, I tried to mention this situation in my previous remarks. I believe that there were people who did not like that the ceasefire did not succeed, because they had and still have their own agenda, namely regime change in Syria. |
| И это, по сути, подразумевает и включает в себя план по разрушению многоэтнического, многоконфессионального характера сирийского государства и его светского устройства, что имело бы катастрофические последствия для всего региона. В Сирии есть сунниты, шииты, часть шиитской философии, алисы, друзы, христиане и курды. И курдский вопрос – это тот, который, я уверен, должна помнить не только Турция, но и многие другие страны, потому что если Сирия распадется, я не знаю, что курдский вопрос даст всем нам. |
Full house translation — pending review And this, in essence, implies and includes a plan to destroy the multi-ethnic, multi-confessional character of the Syrian state and its secular structure, which would have catastrophic consequences for the entire region. In Syria there are Sunnis, Shiites, part of the Shia philosophy, Alawites, Druze, Christians and Kurds. And the Kurdish question is the one that, I am sure, must be remembered not only by Turkey but by many other countries, because if Syria disintegrates, I do not know what the Kurdish question will give us all. |
| Большинство споров о Сирии – это своего рода массовые убийства, в определенной степени распространяемые в обществе. Была эта знаменитая резня, печально известная резня, печально известная резня, вы правы, если говорить о языке в этом контексте. Это произошло накануне последней попытки Асада попасть к нему в конце мая, и в тот самый момент, когда это случилось, в интернете появились ужасные фотографии, и это всегда связывали с именем Баджира. Увы, какая у вас информация об этой резне? |
Full house translation — pending review Most of the debates about Syria are a kind of mass murder, to a certain extent spread in society. There was that infamous massacre, the infamous massacre, the infamous massacre, you are right if speaking about language in this context. It happened the day before Assad's last attempt to get to him at the end of May, and at that very moment when it happened, terrible photos appeared on the internet, and this was always linked to the name of Bajir. Alas, what information do you have about this massacre? ] |
| 15 The Houla massacre as a provocation | |
| Это не моя информация, это информация, подтвержденная... Независимые наблюдатели сообщили, что в деревне Хула произошла ужасная резня, в результате которой погибло множество членов нескольких суннитских семей, но суннитов, лояльных режиму. Попытки представить это как резню в Алави, как массовое убийство суннитов, были немедленно показаны на экранах телевизоров и в интернете, что не соответствовало действительности. |
Full house translation — pending review This is not my information, this is information confirmed... Independent observers reported that a terrible massacre occurred in the village of Hula, resulting in the deaths of many members of several Sunni families, but Sunnis loyal to the regime. Attempts to portray this as a massacre in Alawi, as a mass killing of Sunnis, were immediately shown on television screens and on the internet, which did not correspond to reality. |
| Независимые наблюдатели провели расследование, изучили видеозаписи и увидели ленты сирийского флага на руках убитых. Они проанализировали другую информацию, и выяснилось, что это была провокация, направленная на то, чтобы возложить ответственность на режим, как и недавние террористические атаки на университет Алеппо, где погибли 82 человека и почти 200 получили ранения. Режим намекал на это как на возможный акт, в том числе на таком уважаемом канале, как CNN. |
Full house translation — pending review Independent observers conducted an investigation, reviewed video footage, and saw Syrian flag ribbons on the hands of the deceased. They analyzed other information, and it was revealed that this was a provocation aimed at attributing responsibility to the regime, just as with recent terrorist attacks on the Aleppo University, where 82 people died and nearly 200 were injured. The regime hinted at this as a possible act, including on such a respected channel as CNN. |
| Это больше никогда не повторялось, но была попытка опровергнуть эту версию. В публичное пространство... знаете, мы, как Министерство иностранных дел, сотрудничаем со средствами массовой информации уже много-много лет, причем очень интенсивно и открыто. |
Full house translation — pending review This has never happened again, but there was an attempt to refute this version. Into the public space... you know, we, as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, have been cooperating with the media for many, many years, very intensively and openly. |
| Мы очень уважаем профессионализм и объективный характер освещения событий большинством наших коллег, но мы также знаем, что иногда люди в СМИ, вольно или невольно, играют на руку тем, кто хочет спровоцировать события или искусственно повлиять на общественное мнение, ввести его в заблуждение. Были случаи, когда на непосредственной стадии сирийской трагедии на довольно уважаемых каналах показывали кадры резни, и говорили, что это режим убивает мирных жителей. |
Full house translation — pending review We greatly respect the professionalism and objective nature of coverage by most of our colleagues, but we also know that sometimes people in the media, intentionally or unintentionally, play into the hands of those who want to provoke events or artificially influence public opinion and mislead it. There were cases where, at the immediate stage of the Syrian tragedy, footage of massacres was shown on quite respected channels, and it was said that the regime was killing civilians. |
| 16 The psychological war and media manipulation | |
| Позже независимые наблюдатели выяснили, что этим кадрам около 8 лет, и они относятся к иракской войне. У нас был собственный опыт в августе 2008 года, когда Сакаш начал войну против собственного народа, потому что он сказал, что Юг... |
Full house translation — pending review Later, independent observers found out that these clips were about 8 years old and relate to the Iraqi war. We had our own experience in August 2008 when Sakash started a war against his own people because he said that the South... |
| Жители Азиатско-Тихоокеанского региона — мои граждане, поэтому он напал на своих собственных граждан, а западные каналы показывали кадры танков, въезжающих в населенные пункты, в город, в деревню, и говорили, что это советские войска, русские войска, конечно же, но они чуть не сказали, что советские, русские войска входят в грузинский город Гори, в то время как экспертное исследование этих изображений показало, что это были грузинские войска, входящие в южно-восточный город Сваль. |
Full house translation — pending review The residents of the Asia-Pacific region are my citizens, so he attacked his own citizens, while Western channels showed footage of tanks entering populated areas, into the city, into the village, and said that these were Soviet troops, Russian troops, of course, but they almost said that Soviet, Russian troops were entering the Georgian city of Gori, while an expert analysis of these images showed that it was Georgian troops entering the south-eastern city of Sval. |
| Так что подобные вещи происходили, поэтому мы находимся в состоянии психологической войны, подобные вещи происходили очень часто. И те, кто хочет добиться успеха, те, кто видит в этой сирийской драме и в этой драме «Арабской весны» в целом, те, кто видит в этих событиях не судьбу Пуэрто-Рико, не судьбу людей, не судьбу стран, а свой геополитический шанс, время от времени прибегают к этим грязным уловкам. |
Full house translation — pending review So such things happened, so we are in a state of psychological warfare, such things happened very often. And those who want to succeed, those who see in this Syrian drama and in this Arab Spring drama as a whole, those who see in these events not the fate of Puerto Rico, not the fate of people, not the fate of countries, but their own geopolitical chance, from time to time resort to these dirty tricks. |
| Но я хочу еще раз сказать, что это абсолютное меньшинство случаев, и это абсолютное большинство журналистов, с которыми я встречался, а я встречался много, и у меня много друзей среди журналистов. Я очень уважаю и ценю их профессионализм и стремление представить объективную картину без каких-либо оценочных суждений. Результат резни в Хуле я увидел через пару дней. Вскоре после этого большинство европейских стран выгнали сирийских захватчиков и отправили их обратно в Дамаск. Погубило ли это мир Анана? |
Full house translation — pending review But I want to say again that this is an absolute minority of cases, and this is an absolute majority of journalists with whom I met, and I met many, and I have many friends among journalists. I very much respect and value their professionalism and their desire to present an objective picture without any evaluative judgments. The result of the massacre in Hula I saw a couple of days later. Soon after that, most European countries expelled the Syrian occupiers and sent them back to Damascus. Did this ruin the world of Anan? |
| Я не знаю, но знаете, реакция европейских стран была, так сказать, инстинктивной, и они немедленно отреагировали, как вы сказали. Одно дело, но, возможно, через два дня, как вы сказали, они выгнали многих из них, выгнали сирийских послов. Но через 3 дня после резни в Хуле никто об этом не помнил. Это действительно исчезло из поля зрения, потому что к тому времени правда уже была понята, и все понимали, кто это сделал. |
Full house translation — pending review I don't know, but you know, the reaction of European countries was, so to speak, instinctive, and they reacted immediately, as you said. One thing, but perhaps, as you said, after two days, they expelled many of them, expelled the Syrian ambassadors. But after 3 days after the massacre in Hula, no one remembered about it. It really disappeared from view, because by that time the truth had already been understood, and everyone understood who did it. |
| Приведу еще один пример, когда люди действовали на основе каких-то непосредственных новостей в СМИ. Январь-февраль 1999 года, Косово, деревня Рачек, посол Уокер. Глава миссии Управления Верховного комиссара ООН по делам Косово (УВКБ ООН) США прибыл в деревню Рачик, получив информацию о массовой резне. Он обнаружил около трех-четырех десятков тел в гражданской одежде, все убитые. |
Full house translation — pending review I will give another example of people acting on the basis of some immediate news in the media. January-February 1999 year, Kosovo, Rachek village, Ambassador Walker. The head of the mission of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) for Kosovo (UNHCR) from the United States arrived in Rachik village, receiving information about a mass massacre. He found about three to four dozen bodies in civilian clothes, all killed. |
| 17 The Račak precedent and Kosovo | |
| Не сообщив об этом в штаб-квартиру УВКБ ООН и не имея на это полномочий, он собрал журналистов и заявил, что это акт геноцида, совершенный сербами против косовских албанцев. Затем европейские столицы, большинство европейских столиц, заявили, что это была последняя капля, которая послужила поводом для подготовки и осуществления бомбардировок Сербии. Европейский союз, как известно, распорядился провести расследование этой ситуации и нанял финских экспертов- криминалистов. |
Full house translation — pending review Without informing the UNHCR headquarters about this and without having the authority to do so, he gathered journalists and declared that this was an act of genocide committed by Serbs against Kosovo Albanians. Then European capitals, most European capitals, stated that this was the last drop that served as a pretext for the preparation and implementation of bombings of Serbia. The European Union, as is known, ordered an investigation into this situation and hired Finnish forensic experts. |
| Эксперты из Финляндии изучили ситуацию и обнаружили, что это не была резня мирных жителей, что все эти мужчины в возрасте были убиты не на близком расстоянии, а характер ран, приведших к смерти, был похож на раны, полученные в... Боевые действия, и раны на теле не совпадали с повреждениями от одежды, понимаете, искажениями. Видимо, они участвовали в боевых действиях, а после того, как их убили, люди просто переоделись из военной формы в гражданскую. Это вызвало довольно широкое обсуждение. |
Full house translation — pending review Experts from Finland studied the situation and found that this was not a massacre of civilians, that all these men of age were killed not at close range, and the nature of the wounds leading to death was similar to wounds received in... Combat operations, and wounds on the body did not match damage from clothing, you understand, distortions. Apparently, they participated in combat operations, and after they were killed, people simply changed from military uniform to civilian clothes. This caused quite a wide discussion. |
| Я работал в Нью- Йорке в Совете Безопасности, и мы попросили Совет Безопасности представить этот доклад, потому что инцидент в Рич стал катализатором войны против Сербии без разрешения Совета Безопасности. Нам сказали, что это не собственность Организации Объединенных Наций, а собственность Европейского союза. Затем мы пришли в Европейский союз и сказали: «Ребята, друзья, это важный вопрос. |
Full house translation — pending review I worked in New York at the Security Council, and we asked the Security Council to submit this report, because the incident in Rich became a catalyst for the war against Serbia without the authorization of the Security Council. We were told that this was not the property of the United Nations, but the property of the European Union. Then we came to the European Union and said: 'Guys, friends, this is an important issue.' ] |
| Речь идет о будущем Европы, о заключительном акте Хельсинки, о том, как вы будете разрешать конфликты в Европе на основе принципов Хельсинки. Можете ли вы поделиться этим докладом с Советом Безопасности?» Они ответили: «Смотрите, мы уже отправили его в Международный трибунал по бывшей Югославии, так что это собственность трибунала». Карла Дель Понте была главным прокурором трибунала, и он время от времени посещал Нью-Йорк. |
Full house translation — pending review It is about the future of Europe, about the concluding act of Helsinki, about how you will resolve conflicts in Europe based on the principles of Helsinki. Can you share this report with the Security Council?» They answered: «Look, we have already sent it to the International Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, so it is the property of the tribunal». Carla Del Ponte was the chief prosecutor of the tribunal, and he occasionally visited New York. |
| Я встретился с ней и спросил: «Карла, почему бы тебе не передать это в Совет Безопасности?» — «Это довольно конфиденциальный доклад, я не знаю почему». Я сказал: «Хорошо, может быть, мы сможем прийти к компромиссу, что ты передашь доклад в Секретариат в секретной комнате, и только посол, члены Совета Безопасности, будут приходить и читать доклад, не делая никаких записей». Это тоже было опровергнуто. Затем произошла утечка информации, и оказалось, что на самом деле, как я уже говорил, это была явная провокация. |
Full house translation — pending review I met with her and asked: «Carla, why don't you hand this over to the Security Council?» — «It is a fairly confidential report, I don't know why». I said: «Okay, maybe we can reach a compromise, that you hand the report to the Secretariat in the secure room, and only the ambassador, members of the Security Council, will come and read the report, making no records». This was also refuted. Then an information leak occurred, and it turned out that, as I have already said, it was an obvious provocation. |
| 18 Brahimi's mission and the Russia–US–Brahimi format | |
| Но это привело к развитию событий, которые изменили карту Балкан. Да, всякое случается. Когда Ибрагимми недавно вернулся из Дамаска, что он вам сказал о ситуации? Он не оптимистичен. Он сказал, что пытается дать понять о необходимости начать работу на основе Женевской конвенции, что он хочет... Видите, режим проявляет гибкость, и режим не говорит « нет», но, по сути, не говорит « да». |
Full house translation — pending review But this led to the development of events that changed the map of the Balkans. Yes, anything can happen. When Ibrahimmi recently returned from Damascus, what did he tell you about the situation? He is not optimistic. He said that he is trying to convey the need to start work based on the Geneva Convention, that he wants... See, the regime shows flexibility, and the regime does not say «no», but, in essence, does not say «yes». |
| Послание, которое режим передает Брахиму, как он мне сказал, заключается в том, что сначала нужно выполнить обещания перед оппозицией, потому что оппозиция даже не хочет принимать саму идею диалога. А с режимом мы готовы к диалогу с теми, кто не поддерживает внешнее вмешательство, с патриотически настроенной оппозицией, которая думает о своей стране и так далее. |
Full house translation — pending review The message that the regime conveys to Brahim, as he told me, is that first you need to fulfill promises to the opposition, because the opposition does not even want to accept the idea of dialogue itself. And with the regime we are ready for dialogue with those who do not support external intervention, with a patriotically minded opposition that thinks about its country and so on. |
| Затем Брахим, как вы, возможно, слышали, предложил провести встречу между русскими, американцами и собой, и мы встретились с Хиллари Клинтон в Дублине в рамках министерской встречи ОСК. Это была короткая встреча, но предложение Брахима было таким: почему бы нам не попробовать в таком формате найти способ реализовать Женевское сообщество? Никто не отрицает Женевское сообщество, все его принимают. Но некоторые говорят, что оно подлежит интерпретации. Какой именно интерпретации? Я не знаю. |
Full house translation — pending review Then Brahim, as you may have heard, proposed holding a meeting between Russians, Americans, and himself, and we met with Hillary Clinton in Dublin within the framework of the OSCE ministerial meeting. It was a short meeting, but Brahim's proposal was: why don't we try to find a way to implement the Geneva Community in such a format? No one denies the Geneva Community; everyone accepts it. But some say it requires interpretation. What kind of interpretation? I don't know. |
| Это очень прямолинейное заявление: остановить насилие, назначить переговорщиков, составить соглашение. Основой взаимного соглашения является подготовка переходного органа власти к избирательному периоду. Те, кто говорит, что это требует интерпретации, снова поднимают вопрос о том, что президент Ассад должен уйти. Совет Безопасности должен принять санкции против режима и так далее. |
Full house translation — pending review This is a very straightforward statement: stop the violence, appoint negotiators, draft an agreement. The basis of the mutual agreement is preparing the transitional authority for the electoral period. Those who say this requires interpretation raise again the question that President Assad must go. The Security Council must impose sanctions against the regime and so on. |
| Женевский документ абсолютно однозначен, и для его принятия требуется лишь политическая воля всех, кто может повлиять на сирийские партии, в совокупности. Группа действий, собравшаяся в Женеве, — это правильная группа людей, чтобы сказать людям, которые воюют, то же самое и с той же энергией, и это сработает. После этого состоялись еще две встречи между российскими и американскими дипломатами вместе с Брахими, и мы представили это видение. |
Full house translation — pending review The Geneva document is absolutely unambiguous, and its adoption requires only the political will of all who can influence the Syrian parties, collectively. The Action Group that gathered in Geneva is the right group of people to tell the people who are fighting, the same with the same energy, and this will work. After that, two more meetings took place between Russian and American diplomats together with Brahim, and we presented this vision. |
| Но у нас сложилось впечатление, что некоторые люди считают, что в таком формате главная цель — убедить Россию изменить свою позицию. Когда мы спрашиваем, каких перемен вы хотите, вы должны сказать Асаду, что он должен уйти. Мы отвечаем, что судьба Ассада должна быть в руках сирийского народа, и что это не наша традиция, не наш способ участвовать в смене режима. |
Full house translation — pending review But we got the impression that some people believe that in such a format the main goal is to persuade Russia to change its position. When we ask what changes you want, you must tell Assad that he must go. We respond that Assad's fate must be in the hands of the Syrian people, and that this is not our tradition, not our way of participating in regime change. ] |
| Это политический принцип, но, помимо этого, в чисто прагматическом плане он никого не собирается слушать, и это факт, который признают все, кто имеет какие-либо контакты прямо или косвенно с Дамаском. Поэтому, чем дольше люди будут настаивать на его уходе как на условии для любого диалога, тем больше жизней будет потеряно. Два последних вопроса: можно ли вообще контролировать оппозицию? Какова цель оппозиции? |
Full house translation — pending review It is a political principle, but, beyond that, in purely pragmatic terms he is not going to listen to anyone, and this is a fact that everyone acknowledges who has any contacts, direct or indirect, with Damascus. Therefore, the longer people insist on his departure as a condition for any dialogue, the more lives will be lost. Two final questions: can the opposition be controlled at all? What is the opposition's goal? |
| Это единая оппозиция, или это все больше и больше разных групп с разными целями, и ни Соединенные Штаты, ни страны Персидского залива не могут их контролировать? Я уже упоминал об этом, когда говорил, что оппозиция до сих пор не смогла создать никакой платформы, никакой политической платформы. Что касается их видения будущего Сирии, единственное, что они говорят, это то, что Асада нужно сместить. |
Full house translation — pending review Is it a unified opposition, or is it increasingly different groups with different goals, and neither the United States nor Gulf countries can control them? I have already mentioned this when I said that the opposition has so far failed to create any platform, any political platform. As for their vision of Syria's future, the only thing they say is that Assad needs to be removed. |
| И это, в отсутствие каких-либо заявлений, я считаю единственным объединяющим фактором для различных групп: западных стран, стран Персидского залива, Турции и других, которые вложили много усилий в объединение. Оппозиция и эта коалиция были созданы, и я описываю политическое кредо оппозиции, которое на самом деле совсем не конструктивно. И пока оппозиция не представит свое политическое видение перехода, политическое видение Сирии, мы не будем знать, едины они или нет. |
Full house translation — pending review And this, in the absence of any statements, I consider the only unifying factor for various groups: Western countries, Gulf countries, Turkey, and others, who have invested a lot of effort in unification. The opposition and this coalition were created, and I describe the political creed of the opposition, which is actually not constructive at all. And until the opposition presents its political vision of transition, its political vision for Syria, we will not know whether they are united or not. |
| 19 Can the opposition be controlled, and guarantees for minorities | |
| Например, вы знаете, что одна из групп, воюющих против Сирии, — это очень жесткая группировка « Батан», которая была признана террористической группировкой Соединенными Штатами. И все это только для того, чтобы увидеть немедленное неприятие этой американской позиции со стороны сирийской коалиции оппозиции. Другими словами, я считаю, что ради сохранения единства им приходится быть очень эклектичными в выборе тех, кого они объединяют под одним зонтиком. Поэтому нам нужно посмотреть, как это будет развиваться. |
Full house translation — pending review For example, you know that one of the groups fighting against Syria is a very hardline group called 'Ahrar al-Sham', which was designated as a terrorist organization by the United States. And all of this is only to see the immediate rejection of this American position by the Syrian opposition coalition. In other words, I believe that in order to preserve unity, they have to be very eclectic in choosing those they unite under one umbrella. Therefore, we need to see how this will develop. |
| Но ключевой вопрос заключается в том, чтобы понять их политические взгляды, прежде чем обсуждать какие-либо изменения в личностях и структурах. Вероятно, должно быть соглашение, основополагающее соглашение о принципах, которое бы... Четко прописать гарантии всем сирийским группам этнической принадлежности В противном случае, каждое меньшинство будет чувствовать себя комфортно и безопасно в новой Сирии, и я считаю, что это будет важнейшим первым шагом в любом национальном диалоге. |
Full house translation — pending review But the key question is to understand their political views before discussing any changes in personalities and structures. There should probably be an agreement, a foundational agreement on principles that would... Clearly outline guarantees for all Syrian ethnic groups. Otherwise, every minority will feel comfortable and safe in the new Syria, and I believe this will be the most important first step in any national dialogue. |
| Оппозиция должна показать, что она действительно заинтересована в сохранении плюрализма Сирии в этническом и религиозном отношении. И как только будут выдвинуты такие предложения о гарантиях для всех меньшинств, гарантиях безопасности, гарантиях достойного места в обществе, гарантиях, которые обеспечат комфорт всем в Сирии, только после того, как это будет озвучено и одобрено всеми основными игроками, мы сможем практически начать обсуждать личности, структуры и так далее. |
Full house translation — pending review The opposition must show that it is truly interested in preserving Syria's pluralism in ethnic and religious terms. And once such proposals for guarantees for all minorities are put forward, guarantees of security, guarantees of a decent place in society, guarantees that will ensure comfort for everyone in Syria, only after this has been voiced and approved by all major players, we can practically begin discussing personalities, structures, and so on. |
| Не движемся ли мы в направлении своего рода странной новой холодной войны? Обама издал указ о том, что я должен поддерживать оппозицию, президент или премьер-министр Турции поддерживают оппозицию, Саудовская Аравия и Катар отправляют оружие и боевиков в Сирию, Россию и Иран обвиняют в отправке советников и оружия. Не приближается ли к нам более масштабная конфронтация? Между тем, посмотрите, Россия не отправляет никаких советников. Я не могу говорить за Иран, это другая страна, у России нет советников. |
Full house translation — pending review Are we moving towards a kind of strange new cold war? Obama issued an order that I must support the opposition, the president or prime minister of Turkey supports the opposition, Saudi Arabia and Qatar send weapons and fighters to Syria, Russia and Iran are accused of sending advisors and weapons. Is a larger confrontation approaching? Meanwhile, look, Russia is not sending any advisors. I cannot speak for Iran, it is another country, Russia has no advisors. |
| Страны Европы и некоторые страны региона, и, вероятно, Соединенные Штаты открыто заявляли, что на границе с Сирией в Турции у них есть инструкторы спецназа, которые работают с оппозицией, и они не скрывают этого. Некоторые европейские страны и некоторые страны региона действительно имеют свои спецподразделения в так называемых освобожденных районах Сирии. Мы знаем это. |
Full house translation — pending review Countries in Europe and some countries in the region, and probably the United States have openly stated that they have special forces instructors at the border with Syria in Turkey who work with the opposition, and they do not hide this. Some European countries and some countries in the region indeed have their special units in the so-called liberated areas of Syria. We know this. |
| 20 A new Cold War? Arms, advisers and the Tartus facility | |
| У нас нет никакого военного персонала внутри Сирии, за исключением нескольких десятков человек в Тартусе, где находится российская военно-морская база. Это не база, это фактически пункт материально-технического обеспечения кораблей. Это слишком скромно, чтобы называться базой, больше не военная база. Это законно направленный военный военно-морской персонал для обслуживания кораблей, заходящих в порт Тартуса. Другие страны имеют инструкторов, советников и т. д. спецназа. |
Full house translation — pending review We have no military personnel inside Syria at all, except for a few dozen people in Tartus, where the Russian naval base is located. This is not a base; it is in fact a supply point for ships. It is too modest to be called a base; it is no longer a military base. It is legally directed naval military personnel for servicing ships entering the port of Tartus. Other countries have instructors, advisors, and so on of special forces. |
| Что касается поставок оружия, то внешние сторонники оппозиции предпринимают довольно много усилий для его вооружения, в том числе довольно сложным оружием. Завершить только выполнение контрактов, которые были подписаны и оплачены, и которые касаются поставки сирийскому правительству систем ПВО. Военная техника, которую мы отправляем в Сирию, предназначена для защиты Сирии от внешней агрессии. Это вооружение, системы ПВО, не могут быть использованы в гражданской войне. |
Full house translation — pending review As for the supply of weapons, external supporters of the opposition are making quite a lot of efforts to arm them, including with quite complex weapons. We will only complete the execution of contracts that were signed and paid for, and that concern the supply of air defense systems to the Syrian government. The military equipment that we send to Syria is intended to protect Syria from external aggression. This weaponry, air defense systems, cannot be used in a civil war. |
| Но оружие, которое поставляется оппозиции, — надеюсь, вы знаете, — поставщики отслеживают судьбу этого оружия, потому что все наши европейские друзья признают, что в Мали экстремисты воюют с оружием, которое им было предоставлено, когда они воевали против Каддафи в Ливии. Это снова отражает то, о чем мы говорили в начале нашей дискуссии. Это отражает концентрацию мира. Что ж, у нас есть Ливия. Давайте, если нам не нравится Каддафи, давайте отправим оружие, чтобы свергнуть Каддафи. |
Full house translation — pending review But the weapons that are supplied to the opposition — I hope you know — suppliers track the fate of this weapons, because all our European friends acknowledge that in Mali extremists are fighting with weapons that were provided to them when they fought against Gaddafi in Libya. This again reflects what we talked about at the beginning of our discussion. This reflects the concentration of peace. Well, we have Libya. Let us, if we do not like Gaddafi, let us send weapons to overthrow Gaddafi. |
| И мы не думаем, что может произойти с этим оружием после того, как Каддафи будет свергнут. Теперь то же самое происходит в другой стране. Хорошо, у нас есть эта проблема. Серьезная попытка взглянуть на геополитическую ситуацию и на то, как меняется или вращается карта этого важнейшего региона, потому что это не эволюция, это революция. |
Full house translation — pending review And we do not think that anything can happen to this weapons after Gaddafi is overthrown. Now the same thing is happening in another country. Well, we have this problem. A serious attempt to look at the geopolitical situation and at how the map of this most important region is changing or rotating, because this is not evolution, it is revolution. |
| Я знаю, что западные и российские политологи действительно пытаются провести этот анализ, но, вероятно, внутри нас, Германии и европейских стран, ведутся какие-то тайные дискуссии о реальных последствиях и опасностях этих событий. Но на поверхности мы все еще слышим, что Асад должен уйти, мы должны поддержать оппозицию, мы должны создать правительство в изгнании. |
Full house translation — pending review I know that Western and Russian political scientists are indeed trying to conduct this analysis, but, probably, within us, Germany, and European countries, some secret discussions are taking place about the real consequences and dangers of these events. But on the surface we still hear that Assad must go, we must support the opposition, we must create a government in exile. |
| 21 Three branches of one civilisation — a plea for honest cooperation | |
| Другими словами, у меня такое чувство, что люди, принимающие решения по внешней политике на Западе, понимают происходящее гораздо лучше, чем то, что они говорят публично. И если мы говорим о стратегическом партнерстве между Россией и Европейским союзом, Россией и НАТО, мы хотели бы иметь стратегическое партнерство с НАТО. Я думаю, что давайте забудем об организациях, просто, знаете, европейцы, включая Россию и Соединенные Штаты. Кстати, мы три ветви одной цивилизации. |
Full house translation — pending review In other words, I have the feeling that people making decisions on foreign policy in the West understand what is happening much better than what they say publicly. And if we are talking about a strategic partnership between Russia and the European Union, Russia and NATO, we would like to have a strategic partnership with NATO. I think that let's forget about organizations, simply, you know, Europeans, including Russia and the United States. By the way, we are three branches of one civilization. |
| Я думаю, что если мы всерьез хотим помочь стабилизировать ситуацию, сотрудничать с цивилизацией, мы должны спокойно сесть и обсудить это. |
Full house translation — pending review I think that if we seriously want to help stabilize the situation, cooperate with the civilization, we must calmly sit down and discuss this. |
| Э-э, честный анализ происходящего, отбросьте геополитические амбиции и подумайте о судьбе этого региона, о судьбе живущих там людей, а затем разработайте конструктивный подход, основанный на необходимости создания внешних условий для мирного решения проблем жителей региона на основе всеобъемлющего национального диалога, на основе уважения ко всем этническим и религиозным группам, включая христиан, которые веками жили в этом регионе в мире друг с другом. И этот мир подрывается на наших глазах. Это очень прискорбно. |
Full house translation — pending review Uh, honest analysis of what is happening, discard geopolitical ambitions and think about the fate of this region, about the fate of the people living there, and then develop a constructive approach based on the need to create external conditions for the peaceful resolution of the problems of the region's inhabitants based on comprehensive national dialogue, based on respect for all ethnic and religious groups, including Christians who have lived in peace with each other in this region for centuries. And this peace is being undermined before our eyes. This is very sad. |
| 22 Annan's resignation call | |
| Последний вопрос: Кофан перед своей отставкой звонил вам и говорил, что собирается уйти в отставку? Какова была ваша реакция? Какова была ваша реакция, если бы он ушел? Он сказал, что его мандат истекает в конце августа, кажется, прошлого года, и что он попросит Генерального секретаря найти ему замену. Какова была ваша реакция? Я сказал: «Кофе, это ваше решение». |
Full house translation — pending review Last question: Did Kofan call you before his resignation and say that he was planning to resign? What was your reaction? What would your reaction have been if he had resigned? He said that his mandate was expiring at the end of August, it seems last year, and that he would ask the Secretary-General to find him a replacement. What was your reaction? I said: 'Coffee, that is your decision.'] |
| Matching Russian passage has not been identified |
Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Kind: captions Language: en um Russia sent a couple of planes to byot for evacuation of Russians in Syria is this the beginning of the end game no no no no we made a statement today the ministry explained uh the ples delivered humanitarian assistance another dispatch of humanitarian assistance we have been regularly supplying humanitarian assistance to all syrians and uh we just informed the Russian citizens who reside in Syria mostly those are women who married Syrian citizens that there would be an opportunity |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified uh to take them out uh because some of them expressed their desire uh to wait out this tough period in Syrian history and U about 100 of them uh decided to use those planes uh to go to Russia to spend time with their relatives so compared with the numbers in Syria 8,000 I think registered Russians and about 24,000 no I think it's less uh of those who are registered uh but most of them are not registered uh 3 or 5,000 I don't remember exactly of uh them have been registered with the consulate authorities of the |
| Matching Russian passage has not been identified |
Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Russian Embassy in Syria but uh much more didn't but among those who Express the interest uh to get out for the time being only about 100 uh expressed the willingness to use this two planes uh to go to Russia it is not an evacuation in any sense of the word Russia has been blocking in history a number of un resolutions uh why well you know the uh vote which Russia and China uh undertook um Ving three res resolutions uh in a very short period of time was a reflection of our responsibility Vis A the United Nations |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Charter veto is not a privilege veto is not uh something of a Caprice uh veto is an inherent right of the permanent members under the United Nations Charter and it was agreed when the UN was formed by the founding fathers that uh they should not repeat unhappy experience of the League of Nations which was based on the principle one country one vote a democratic principle on the surface but uh this uh particular principle did not allow the League of Nations to F to act properly and as you know the Americans were |
| Matching Russian passage has not been identified |
Cached English source — passage alignment not verified not happy they dropped out so it was the American assistence in 1943 through 1945 when the new world organization was discussed in the midst of the World War II uh it was the American insistence that there must be special rights for the uh key powers and uh therefore the veto right uh reflects the conviction of the founding fathers that unless the key Powers agree any decision would not be uh working would not be uh productive and would not would not deliver basically uh therefore the principle of the veto is |
| Matching Russian passage has not been identified |
Cached English source — passage alignment not verified enshrined in the chter and every single UN member who signs the chatter and ratified the chatter accepted this so we exercised our responsibility not to allow the security Council to pass resolutions which were under chapter 7 which contained threats of sanctions and which contained The Very uh realistic risk of outside interference our conviction was that we should be based on the decisions which the security Council adopted already before those Vos have been used namely the uh statement of the chairman of |
| Matching Russian passage has not been identified |
Cached English source — passage alignment not verified August 2011 which was initiated by Russia and then the resolutions uh 2042 and 20143 which developed further the principles uh embodied in the original document namely that the syrians themselves must resolve the crisis that the violence must stop in all its forms by all parties that the all-inclusive Syrian dialogue must be encouraged by the International Community and that there should be no way for outside interference as I said this was U further developed in the two resolutions which were adopted on the |
| Matching Russian passage has not been identified |
Cached English source — passage alignment not verified basis of the Sixpoint plan of Cofe Anan uh on the basis of this plan uh observers un observers have been deployed in Syria and on the basis of this plan an action group meeting took place in Geneva in uh June 2012 uh which produced a consensual document uh containing all the necessary components to stop the fighting and to start the political process it is not through our fault that this document uh has been frozen since because the people who signed up to this document uh when it came to the Practical |
| Matching Russian passage has not been identified |
Cached English source — passage alignment not verified implementation of the Geneva communic was saying well it's okay but before anything Assad must go this is not part of the Geneva consensus and not because we are protecting asset from his people not at all we frankly don't care about personalities uh what we care about is the fate of the Syrian people is the fate of Syria as a United sovereign independent state which is multi-confessional multiethnic and which was home for so many religions for so many ethnic groups and they have been living there in peace and |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified relative Prosperity uh Frankly Speaking of course the political problems which uh motivated the opposition to protest uh have been there we're not denying them the authorities made many mistakes they uh did not respond to the legitimate requests from the opposition for too long uh and then the protests degenerated into violence on both sides and now we have been unfortunately witnessing uh further militarization of the conflict with the opposition gaining more and more ground uh getting support from outside and |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified the government of course responding to the violence of the opposition uh which was in its turn motivated by the government mistakes so it's a vicious circle and and and uh we have to uh be absolutely clear that uh any uh uh threats from the security Council would be immediately uh used by those who would like to provoke outside interference because uh you can uh well when you threaten you have to have uh some monitoring mechanisms to see how both how all sides behave because they are more than two sides in in in |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Syria the opposition is not United the opposition uh is acting against the government parallel with quite a number of terrorist groups uh one of these groups uh have been uh designated as a terrorist group by the United States which caused protests from the National Coalition of the Syrian opposition so it's a very bad and very complicated mix so whatever we do our priority number one must be to put aside all the claims all the pretexts all the preconditions if our priority is to save lives then we have to tell |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified them now without any preconditions stop fighting all of the those who participated in Geneva they provide a combination of outside actors having influence on one or another Syrian party and if we all in a synchronized manner tell them to stop fighting to designate their delegations to negotiate an interim transitional uh governing body and then to impower this body with the uh preparation of the new constitution preparation of the new election uh this is the only way if we are all sincere when we say that we want |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified to save lives and not to allow the violence to continue and all this is embodied in the Geneva Community which we still believe can be implemented and must be implemented without any preconditions if on the other hand the priority of some of our partners is not to save lives but to depose asset to to to remove asset one way right another and Assad is not going to move he said this publicly and he would not listen to us to the Chinese to the Iranians to no one he said I am Syrian I was born here I protecting my |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified people and I would die in Syria so if people believe under these circumstances uh having heard his position that before anything political can happen he must be removed then of course this is a position which we have uh but those who promote this I must understand that the price for this geopolitical goal to remove AET the price is more and more lives of civilians in Syria so we have to make a choice either we want to save lives and then we have to forget about who is responsible for the time being and to bring |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified all of them to negotiating table or if we don't care about lives and care about asset's fate then of course no one can can really help you were there last year in February to speak with us at what was your impression at the time being well our impression was that uh uh he's uh not really uh getting um in line with the events uh he was a bit more um in the thinking that history is on his side uh he was responding to our appeals to speed up the reforms and he said that this would be done this is on my plan this is |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified on my schedule but unfortunately he announced those reforms only few months later uh well February was already late for the reforms had the reforms been announced in the summer of uh 2011 things might have uh went different way uh the substance of the reforms went in the right direction it was a multi-party system for the first time in so many decades uh it was a new constitution allowing for this multi-party system the law on mass media the law on local government something else uh and they held the referendum |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified on the new constitution as you know they held the elections the government is now uh technically speaking uh is composed of the governing party and the opposition parties uh but uh it was a bit late now president Assad in January uh introduced a new plan inviting all patriotic opposition who is against outside interference uh to sit down to have a national dialogue and to develop further the legislative reform and to prepare for new elections uh and to draft a road map for new Syria uh which was rejected by the |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified opposition uh and I think that this is a mistake yes this uh ideas of his uh they are not uh probably satisfactory to all and uh if you ask me uh I would also believe that we might suggest some you know improvements in what was proposed but it is something which is moved forward by the acting president of Syria and which is about dialogue and National reconciliation uh saving the country from total Destruction saving the country from falling into pieces and it's a proposal which is with all its inefficiencies |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified potential inefficiencies I would say which is formulated in the context of political dialogue when the opposition says this is rubbish we don't accept this uh maybe they don't like a lot in this proposal maybe they don't like it at all but the opposition is not offering any political alternative the only thing which is uniting the opposition is toppling the regime and uh this is this could also be understood they don't like this regime they have been tired of this regime but the opposition during all these almost |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified two years never produced any construct Ive platform when this National Coalition was formed uh uh in Doha at the meeting of the various opposition groups with some Western countries the gulf countries turkey helping them they uh declared the creation of this Coalition as a unifying mechanism and they adopted a statement saying that the main goal of this Coalition is to topple the regime and to dismantle its uh structure which is absolutely against what the Geneva communic said in Geneva everyone agreed that we |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified have to have a transitional period but the structures of the country must remain untouched not to repeat uh the mistakes which were made in Iraq for example when the entire when the entire system when the entire government system was destroyed by the American uh um occupation Force so I would really like and we meet with the opposition groups with all of them and we uh challenge them guys we we want you to be part of the solution therefore okay you hate the regime but you must have some agenda for your country |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified not for the regime for your people an agenda which would spell out your political vision of how you get to a new Syria and they so far for the two years they failed to produce one what actually in geopolitical terms is the issue in Syria in that context why we do have have so many players in Syria you know we we uh in our attitude towards what is going on in Syria uh we are not basing ourselves on any geopolitical considerations uh we don't have uh any considerable vested interest egoistic vested interest |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified economically militarily or other in the Syrian situation well Marine bases could be you know used could be changed uh as far as location is concerned but geopolitical context is being introduced not by us the people who say the regime must be changed they are driven willingly or unwillingly by the well-known notion of the greater Middle East and North Africa introduced many years ago by George Bush Jr uh who said that democratizing the Middle East is our utmost goal uh I think any interested Observer who follows |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified what is going on in the region uh can make his or her own conclusions as far as the results of these democratizations uh democratization move are concerned and we have more and more problems uh in the countries which have been declared at some point by the Americans for example as beacons of democracy uh the problems are still far from being resolved uh in Afghanistan in Iraq uh we have quite troubling situation in Egypt where they still have to find some solutions which would be uniting the nation uh we still |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified have a lot of problems in Libya we talk to the new Libyan authorities they're interested in continuing our cooperation but they really face huge problems as far as the central uh government uh exercising its Authority all over the territory of Libya is concerned and if you look down south the people who were part of the uh Coalition toppling the Gaddafi regime uh probably they only want to fight and they could not stay in a in a peaceful condition so most many of them are now fighting in Mali and they're using |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified the Arms by the way sop some sophisticated arms among others which had been supplied to them by the Western powers and by some of the regional countries when they were fighting Gaddafi MH so it's it's you know history hits back and um this spiral of violence uh really uh is very is very dangerous so since you your question uh asking about geopolitical uh context of this uh unfortunately uh we have been witness uh to peac Mill approach well there was uh a revolution in Tunis everyone was thinking how to support |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified this revolution then there was a revolution in in Egypt Libya uh then Yemen then Mali now Syria uh it is not a geopolitical vision geopolitical desire to have democracy all over the place uh well as a general uh Avenue of the development of the humankind it's absolutely logical but it is not constructive and it is absolutely counterproductive to say that it's only the Western type of democracy which must Prevail you can canot have Western type of democracy in Afghanistan where they have centuries old tradition |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified same in Iraq same in Iran same in Egypt there must be understanding that the uh key principles of free elections for example and uh market economy they are underlying factors of any more or less successful development of Any Nation and more and more countries come to this conclusion but to impress upon the countries with long history very ancient civilizations the NR which are understandable by the west but which are very foreign to those countries uh uh which which relates to how exactly to organize this |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Democratic uh and market economy process is really self-defeating and could only uh create a situ ation where this um impressive and imposing attitude would would fire back we have countries like Saudi Arabia we have Qatar we have Iran we have turkey we have Syria and we have Israel in the region so a number of these countries are not very well known for Democratic progress in the past anyway because they are kingdoms they have an own agenda well I think if you speak about Israel and Iran they they do have |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Democratic Traditions different again different uh Israel is a democracy and no one can challenge this from any point of view uh Iran yes they have some filters in the electoral system for example but uh when these filters have been uh overcome by the candidates then there is a real fight real electoral fight and you cannot deny this uh so uh but again it reflects the the specific features of the society and you cannot really demand that now immediately here and now everyone must satisfy the criteria which for |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified example osc establishes osc was uh helping to organize elections in Afghanistan and we all know uh that the osc was wise enough uh not to apply the same criteria as that applies uh to some European countries though osc normally applies different criteria to the countries of the former Soviet Union and to the uh old democracies which is a double standard in any case let me come back to the serious attempts in Syria to create a kind of settlement in between the opposition and Assad kofan started his job in February |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified last year uh who elected kof at the time and uh what why did he fail at the very end well the first one the first part of your question is very easy the Secretary General of the United Nations and the Secretary General of the Arab League asked kofan whether he would be interested in getting the job uh being uh The Joint representative joint special Envoy of the United Nations and the repique he agreed and this was brought to the security Council and the security Council welcomed the appointment uh but uh and we |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified supported this strongly but before I uh go uh further into the theme which you uh touched upon I would like uh to say a few words about what preceded the kof's appointment cian's appointment was preceded by the Arab League initiative in November 11 uh which we strongly supported and the initiative was about the need for the government and the opposition to stop fighting and to deploy uh the Arab League monitors to check whether this ceasefire is being observed uh we um took some efforts to persuade the regime in |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Syria to support the initiative because they didn't want uh to originally and uh the opposition also pledged to cooperate then the Arab League observers were deployed in Syria they started working uh late November and uh after one month or so after their presence in Syria they submitted their first report uh to the security Council which was not uh just one-sided which was saying that there were violations on both sides and they gave examples of the ceasefire violations as they saw it by the government M but also |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified by the groups and uh this apparently uh was not liked by some people uh who wanted who wanted the change of the regime in Syria so before even the security Council could consider this report the mission was uh aborted by the decision of not even of the Arab League but the by the gulf cooperation council members and The Observers had to withdraw so just to make a point the moment the mission tried to present some objective picture blaming not only the government but also the opposition it was withdrawn then come |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Kofi Anan uh who presented his Sixpoint plan well-known Sixpoint plan end of violence no outside interference uh the government is responsible but the opposition also must take its own responsibilities uh censation of violence International monitoring beginning of the dialogue we supported this plan and we supported the dispatchment of the un uh observers and again uh we explained to Damascus that it is important for them not to object and they agreed so The Observers the UN observers were deployed and they were |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified reporting uh also in an objective manner uh registering the violations on both sides the government and the opposition and they were uh examples uh quite numerous including violation of international humanitarian law and this and this observers this observers were there under very strenuous conditions they have been part of the uh continued pressure and sometimes uh even armed provocations and I talked to the uh Chief observers uh in including in Geneva when on the 30th of June 2012 uh they uh were present at |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified this action group meeting uh I don't want to to to mention names but they admitted that they had much more trouble uh from the opposition than from the government side and this Observer Mission apparently also was moving in the direction of trying to present uh a more objective picture of what is going on and then uh as as they were reporting in an objective manner they came under more and more pressure including some violent pressure some provocations and they had to withdraw my point is that these two examples |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified indicate that there are some people who are not interested in international monitoring of the situation who are not interested in international be it ER or be it un observers to be on the ground as a stabilizing Factor exactly because this is a stabilizing Factor and these people want to destabilize the situation and to provoke um you know the outside interference on the basis of igniting tension using the government um disproportionate actions as a pretext and uh well I think U those of your viewers who follow |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified the situation uh would would have to make their own choice I think they they know the facts could I just come into he went down as um sorry Kofi Anan went to Assad he came back he visited you in Moscow on the 16th of uh March he had been in Damascus and then later on the 24th he came to Moscow what was was his first report as far is the flexibility of the Assad regime was ConEd well his first report was that uh if we manage to stabilize even relatively to stabilize the situation with these International Observers |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified then uh he would be really counting on the uh on those countries who have more influence on the opposition to push them to push the position into a dialogue with the regime and uh as I said in Geneva uh we never agreed uh on any preconditions it was just stated that the government and the opposition must stop fighting must appoint negotiators and these negotiators must agree on the composition uh and the powers of the transitional governing body which would exercise the full executive Authority and which would |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified also exercise the authority over the law enforcement uh forces and the security forces of Syria so uh when this Geneva Community was adopted uh Damascus had its doubts and again we engaged our uh resource if you wish and persuaded them was to say that they are prepared to work on this basis in spite of the fact and it was not it was not easy for them because they were saying uh no regime change we don't want to discuss any transition because we have elections in 2014 uh but then they said that they would be ready |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified to work on the basis of the Geneva community and all those who are assembled in Geneva committed themselves to make sure that all Syrian parties would do the same but unfortunately the opposition rejected Geneva communic Geneva principles the next morning and those who have influence on the opposition be it countries of the region be it Europeans be it the Americans never managed to persuade the opposition to change its mind to change its confrontational mood I mentioned about the creation of this um Syrian n |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified National Coalition of the Revolutionary forces and the opposition in November in Doha yes and then they adopted as I said a two-page statement saying our main goal is not a constructive position but toppling the regime dismantling its institutions and number three no dialogue with the government when I called our American friends my my colleague the Secretary of State and said uh you keep saying that Geneva is the best hope you know uh for us that this is the basis but you you welcome the creation of the |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Coalition which said uh no Geneva basically no dialogue dismantling the institutions uh what is the reason for you welcoming this development cannot you could not you influence them and they told us well it was most important for us to unify their position as far as the platform on which they unified we can influence them later a couple of weeks later there was a meeting of the friends of Syria with is the opposition in Marakesh Morocco and uh we expected you know some change in this absolutely destructive |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified approach by the Coalition but there was none and then we asked our friends uh in the US and Europe you you said that you would be able to influence uh the opposition in the direction of Readiness for a dialogue and in the direction of accepting the Geneva principles and there was no answer and we ask the same question from the opposition groups in this very room we have been meeting with most of them we also have been meeting with them in Istanbul in Paris in London in the United States in Cairo and we keep |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified telling them that uh we incourage them to respond to what was agreed by consensus in Geneva uh by the group which was composed of the five permanent members of the security Council the Arab League uh qar Kuwait Iraq turkey the European Union and the United Nations and we tell them look this is what we all want from you they say nothing uh before Assad disappears look we we we we cannot uh influence uh this wish we cannot deliver on this I don't think anyone can some people say Let's uh offer president Assad you |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified know some deal okay if somebody is ready to offer a deal uh do it directly to president T if people say that without removal of the president of Syria it is impossible to have a dialogue as I said at the beginning of our discussion they must understand that he's not going to go not because we don't tell him to but because he has made his decision and all those who met with him including lar Brahim and kof they can affirm that the impression is that he is not going to go so those who say that he must go before |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified anything can happen they must accept admit they must accept the responsibility for more and more Syrian lives because the war would go on MH there was one historical situation obviously in April last year when ceasefire was more or less suggest that's when kof's plan started yeah yeah uh Why didn't it work what happened because in the beginning of April it looked more or less okay but then things de well I tried I tried to to refer to this situation in my previous remarks I believe that there were some people who |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified did not like the ceasefire uh to succeed uh because they had their own and still have their own agenda which is the regime change in Syria and basically this implies and this involves the plan to ruin the multi-ethnic multi-confessional nature of the ser and secular nature of the Syrian state which would be which would have a a disastrous effect all over the region uh because in Syria you have sunnis you have Shia you have uh part of Shia philosophy Alis uh you have uh druses you have uh Christians and you have |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Kurds and the Kurdish issue is uh the one which I sure not only turkey but many other countries must keep in mind because if Syria disintegrates I don't know what the Kurdish issue would would would uh uh give all of us there was most of the arguments about Syria is a kind of Massacre marketing to a certain extent in the public um there was this famous Massacre fola Infamous Infamous Massacre of of fola fola you correct as far as language is concerned in that context um and it was on the eve of an's more or less |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified last attempt to go to Assad at the end of May and at the very moment it happened it appeared on the internet horrible pictures and it was always connected with the name of bajir alas what is your information about this massacre well it is not my information it is the information which was proved by NOS by independent observers the village of hoola uh uh witnessed disgusting Massacre of many many members of several Sunni families but sunnis who were loyal to the regime and the attempts to present it as alavi |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified massacring massacring uh making Massacre of sunnis they were immediately shown on the on the TV screens on on internet uh and this was not true and independent observers uh investigated this matter they looked into the video images they saw the uh ribbons uh of the colors of the Syrian flag uh on the hands on the arms on the hands on the arms of this of this murdered people and they uh analyzed other information it was a provocation intended to make the regime responsible just like uh the recent uh terrorist |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified attacks on the Aleppo University where 82 people died and almost 200 were wounded was uh you know alluded to uh as a possible act by the regime including on such respectful and respected Channel as CNN this was never repeated again but there was an attempt to drop this thought into the public domain uh you know we have been cooperating with mass media as you might imagine as the foreign Ministry uh for many many years and in a very intensive and open way and we uh respect greatly professionalism and the objective |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified character of the coverage of the events by most of our colleagues but we also know that uh sometimes uh people in the media uh willingly or unwillingly uh play to the hands of the of those who want to provoke uh events or to move the public opinion one way or another artificially to mislead the public opinion uh there were uh instances when during the immediate phase of the Syrian uh tragedy there were uh images on quite respected channels uh of Massacre and they were saying this is the regime killing the |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified civilians uh only to find out later by independent observers that the images were some 8 years old and they related to the Iraqi War and we had our own experience in the in August 2008 uh when sakash started war against his own people because he said that South assisians are my citizens so he attacked his own citizens and the Western channels were showing images of Tanks moving uh into human settlement in a city in the village and saying that's the Soviet troops uh the Russian troops of course but they almost |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified said Soviet the Russian troops entering the Georgian City uh of Gori while the expert uh research of these images showed that this was the Georgian troops entering the South Ean city of sval so things like that happened so we are in a psychological War things like that happened well very much very much so and uh uh those who want to achieve those who see in this Syrian drama and in this Arab Spring drama in general those who see uh in this events not the fate of the PE not the fates of the people not the Fate of |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified the countries but those who see their geopolitical chance uh they from time to time resort to these dirty tricks and but but I want I want to say once again that this is absolute minority of cases and that absolute majority of of journalists with whom I met and I have met a lot and I have many friends among journalists I I respect and appreciate highly they're professional in and their desire to present an objective picture without making any value judgment the result of the hula Mas was see in a couple of days |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified just later on most of the European countries did throw out the Syrian invadors sent them back to Damascus did this kill anan's pce ofs I don't know but you know the fact that uh the reaction of the European countries was um uh instinctive if you wish and uh uh they immediately acted as you said uh is one thing uh but maybe in two days as you said they thrown out many of them th threw out Syrian ambassadors but 3 days after the hula Massacre no one remembered about it it was really dropped from the screens because |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified by that time the truth was already understood and everyone understood who did it I'll give you another example when uh people would be prompted to act uh on the basis of some immediate uh Media news uh 1999 January February Kosovo the village of rachek uh Ambassador walker uh of the United States who was the chief of the osc mission in Kosovo uh he arrived to the Village of rachik after receiving the information that there was some Massacre he arrived there and he saw he discovered some three or four dozen bodies |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified uh in civilian clothes uh all murdered killed and he without reporting to the osc headquarters without having any authority to do this assembled the journalist and said that this is the act of genocide by the serbs against Kosovo albanians and then the European capitals most European capitals say this is the last drop and that was used as a trigger to prepare and then to exercise the bombing of Serbia then the European Union you might know this uh ordered an investigation of this Ric situation and they hired uh |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified finish forensic experts and the forensic Experts of Finland studied the situation they discovered that this was not a massacre of civilians that all these uh men in their better age uh were uh killed not you know at the short distance but the nature of the wounds leading to death was uh like the wounds uh acquired in a combat and that the uh wounds on the body did not um coincide um with the with the cloth you know uh Distortion so apparently they were they were in combat and then after they were killed uh people |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified just you know change their military uniform to the civilian dress and this was uh quite uh highly discussed so I was serving there in New York and the security Council and we asked the secur the security Council to ask for this report to be submitted to the council because Ric incident was really the trigger for the uh war against Serbia without any security C permission then we were told that it was not the property of the United Nations it was the property of the European Union then we came to the European |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Union and saying guys friends it's an important thing it's about the future of Europe it's about helsinky final Act it's about how you handle conflicts in Europe on the basis of the heny principles can you share this report with the security Council they said look we already send it to the international tribunal on former Yugoslavia so it's the property of the tribunal then Carla Del Ponte was the chief prosecutor of the tribunal and he visited New York from time to time I met with her and I said car why don't |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified you uh give it to the security Council well it's um quite confidential report I don't know why uh I said okay maybe uh we can uh reach a compromise that you would deposit the report with the Secretariat in a secret room and only ambassador uh members of the security Council would come and read the report without making any notes this was also denied then there was some leak that the actual story is as I told you that this is this this this was a clear cut provocation so but this gave rise to to to a development |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified which changed the the map of the Balkans so uh yes things happen um the when ibraimi came back just recently from uh Damascus what did he tell you about the situation about well he's not optimistic uh he say that he is trying to send a message uh about the need uh to start working on the basis of Geneva uh that he wants uh you know to see the regime showing flexibility uh and uh the regime does no uh but basically does not say yes the the message which the regime gives to brahimi as Brahim told me is you first |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified deliver on the opposition because the opposition doesn't even want to accept the notion of a dialogue and with the regime we are ready for the dialogue with those who are not in favor of outside interference who patriotic opposition who think about their own country and so on and so forth uh then Brahim as you might have heard offered to have a meeting between Russians Americans and himself and we met with Hillary Clinton in Dublin in the margins of the osc ministerial meeting and it was a brief meeting but the |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified the the suggestion from Brahim was why don't we try in this format uh to find some way to implement the Geneva community no one denies the Geneva Community everyone accepts the Geneva Community uh uh but some people say it is subject to interpretation what kind of interpretation I don't know it is a very blunt statement stop violence designate negotiators uh compose on the basis of mutual agreement this transitional governing body prepare for the elections period uh people who say that this requires |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified interpretation again raise the issue of President asset must go Security Council must adopt sanctions against the regime and so on and so forth uh which which is non stutter the Geneva paper is absolutely unambiguous and it it requires only political will of all those who can influence all Syrian parties in combination and the Action Group which assembled in Geneva is the right group of people uh to tell the the people who are fighting you know the same thing and with the same Vigor and it would it would work |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified after that there were two more meetings between the Russian and American diplomats together with brahimi and we presented this Vision but uh we had an impression that some people believe that um in this format the main goal is to persuade Russia to change its position and when we ask what kind of change do you want well you must tell Assad that he must go and we answer that asset's fate uh must be in the hands of the Syrian people uh and that it is not our tradition not our manner uh to engage in the regime |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified change um apart from this in this is political principle but apart from this in purely pragmatic terms he's not going to listen to anyone and and this is a fact which is recognized by all those who have any uh contacts directly or indirectly with Damascus so therefore uh the longer people insist on having his departure as a precondition for any dialogue the more lives would be lost two last questions um is the opposition to be controlled at all what kind of aim does the opposition has is this a United opposition |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified that's one thing or is it more and more different Crews with different agendas and neither the United States nor the the Gulf States can control them in the meantime well I already already alluded to this to this um theme when I said that the opposition uh has failed so far to produce any platform any political platform how they perceive the future of Syria the only thing which they say is Assad must be removed and that's uh in the absence of any statement is considered by me as the only unifying factor for the |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified various groups the Western countries the gulf countries turkey others uh you know invested a lot of effort to unify the opposition and this Coalition was created and I describ the political uh Credo of the opposition which is not really constructive at all and uh unless the opposition presents its political vision of the transition uh the political vision for Syria uh we wouldn't really know whether they United or not uh for example you know the one part of the of those who fight asset uh is that that uh group |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified very uh tough group uh batan which was designated as a terrorist group by the United States all only to see the immediate rejection of this American position by the Coalition of the syrians of the opposition uh in other words I believe that uh for the sake of sticking together they have to be very eclectic in in in whom they uh get under the One Umbrella uh so we have to see how this evolves but uh the the key issue isue is to understand what are their political views before any discussion of any change in in the |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Personalities in structures probably there must be an agreement an underlying agreement of principle which would clearly spell out guarantees to all Syrian groups ethnic confessional otherwise that each of them each minority would feel comfortable and safe in the new Syria and I believe this would be the most important first step in any national dialogue and the opposition must must show that it is really interested in keeping Syria uh pluralistic in ethnic and religious way and as soon as such proposals of |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified guarantees to all minorities guarantees of security guarantees of the dignified place in the society uh guarantees which would make everyone comfortable in Syria it's only after this has been put on the table and endorsed by all main players that we can uh practically start discussing persons personalities and the structures and so on and so forth are we marching towards the direction of a kind of rather strange new Cold War Obama issued an order that the I should support the opposition the Turkish president or |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified the Prime Minister supports the opposition uh Saudi Arabia and Qatar sending weapons and fighters to Syria Russia and Iran are accused of sending advisors and weapons are we getting in a bigger confrontation in the meantime look uh Russia does not send any advisors I cannot speak for Iran it is a another country Russia doesn't have any advisers on the ground uh countries of Europe and some countries of the region they have and probably well the United States openly stated that on the border with Syria in Turkey |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified they have their special forces instructors uh to work with the opposition they they don't make any secret out of this and some European countries and some countries of the region they do have their special forces in what they call liberated areas of Syria we know this uh we don't have any uh military personnel inside Syria except uh few dozen people in Tartus where the Russian naval uh point of uh Marine base it's not a base it's actually a point where logistical service of the of the ships is being made it is to |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified modest you know to be called the base uh no more no more military it's a legitimate legally sent milit Naval Personnel to service the ships who call on the port of Tartus uh others do have special forces instructors advisors what have you on the supply of weapons yes the uh external supporters of the opposition uh undertake quite a lot to arm it including with rather sophisticated weapons we only finalize the implementation of the contracts which had been signed and which had been paid for and which are about uh |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified supplying the Syrian government with air defense systems the military hardware which we have been sending to Syria is to defend Syria from outside aggression this Weaponry the air defense systems they cannot be used in the Civil War but the weapons which uh are being supplied to the opposition uh I hope you know the the suppliers follow the the the they trace the the fate of these weapons because now all our European friends admit tedly that uh uh in Mali the uh extremists are fighting with the weapons which were |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified given to them when they were fighting against Gaddafi in Libya uh again this reflects this we touched upon this in the beginning of our discussion this reflects a peace Mill concentration well we have Libya well let's we don't like Gaddafi let's send the weapons to topple Gaddafi and we don't think what might happen to these weapons after Gaddafi has been toppled now the same is taking place in another country okay we have this problem on our hands there is no serious attempt to take a geopolitical look at how |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified this map of this crucial region is evolving or revolving because it is not an evolution it's a revolution I know that uh the Western and Russian uh political scientists are really trying to give this analysis but and probably some secret discussions are taking place inside us Germany European countries of what are the real consequences and dangers of these developments uh but on the surface we still hear that Assad must go uh we must support the opposition we must create the government in Exile in other words my |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified feeling is that uh people who decide on foreign policy in the west understand much much better what is going on compared to what they say publicly and uh if we speak about partnership strategic partnership between Russia and the European Union Russia and NATO we would like to have strategic partnership with NATO I think well forget about organizations just you know the Europeans which includes Russia and which includes the United States by the way we are three branches of the same civilization I think if we |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified seriously want to help uh stabilize the situation uh to cooperate with a civilizations we have to sit down quietly and have this uh honest analysis of what is going on and put aside geopolitical Ambitions and think about the fate of this region of the fate of the people who live there and then develop some constructive approach which would be based on the need uh to help create external conditions for the people of the region to be able to resolve their problem s peacefully on the basis of inclusive National |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified Dialogue on the basis of respect of all those uh groups ethnic and religious including Christians who had been living in this region for centuries and centuries and centuries in peace with each other and this peace uh is being undermined in the front of our eyes this is very unfortunate last question did kofan before he resigned called you and said I'm going to resign and what was your reaction your reaction if he did well he said that he would be uh yes he said he that his mandate would be expiring at the end of |
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Cached English source — passage alignment not verified August I think last year and that he would ask the Secretary General to find some replacement and what was your reaction well I said coffe it's your decision |